The new, improved Great Wall

[Snotty]

The Great Wall now provides walls in every city on the continent, in the same way Sun Tzu does with barracks. It used to double the defensive value of walls, but has now lost this ability.

I always liked the cheap useful GW, but this change interests me as well. Instant walls in freshly captured cities for one. Also, does anyone know if the walls can be knocked down by arty? When do they get rebuilt? Arty has been tweaked to hit only walls first, so even if they are rebuilt at the start of your turn the enemy has to waste arty fire every time to knock them down.

Safe cheeky border pushing and easily defendable cities that can be placed in enemy land are two other benefits. Bring a settler along with your stack and drop a city when they need to heal. You can always abandon it if your army needs to move on.

The price has gone up by a whopping 50%, but this is definetly a wonder that needs to be looked at again.

[vondrack]

Re: The new, improved Great Wall

Originally posted by Snotty
Also, does anyone know if the walls can be knocked down by arty? When do they get rebuilt? Arty has been tweaked to hit only walls first, so even if they are rebuilt at the start of your turn the enemy has to waste arty fire every time to knock them down.

IIRC, someone reported there was a bug currently and the arty was demolishing other (non-wall) city improvements instead of the (virtual) walls.

[Catt]

The GW is quite powerful now (and has been in the AU Mod for some time). Although I wouldn't say it is a "must have" wonder, it is not, IMHO, the wonder whose best description for the human player is "dammit, I miscalculated the wonder cascade and now I'm stick with this?"

Catt

[CerberusIV]

I modded PTW to work this way a long time ago. Much more useful than the way it was.

Apart from the bug about targeting walls first, the other thing that worries me is the number of bugs patched in PTW that seem to have crept back. For a long time there was still a benefit from walls for cities over size 6 in PTW. Does anyone know if that one is back?

[smellymummy]

its a nice wonder, too bad the walls don't remain there after metalurgy.

does the temple of artemis behave the same way? (free temples dissapear once obsolete)

[The Slayer]

Yes, they do.



But they're very useful in the ancient times to secure your borders, specially if you have a lot of cities

[MrWhereItsAt]

Originally posted by CerberusIV

Apart from the bug about targeting walls first, the other thing that worries me is the number of bugs patched in PTW that seem to have crept back. For a long time there was still a benefit from walls for cities over size 6 in PTW. Does anyone know if that one is back?

Erm, this was fixed in the v1.21f patch for PtW, the second-to-last patch. This really shouldn't be in C3C if it was fixed way back then.

[Shogun Gunner]

Do I understand this correctly... you can knock down "virtual walls" that are in place because of the Great Wall?

i've never seen that happen...

[MrWhereItsAt]

I can certainly answer this - I did a little test on it to see what happened when you lost your Palace...

Shogun Gunner - you CAN'T knock down those phantom walls. But since the game recognises that Walls are in effect, Artillery will attempt to take the Walls down first. This leads to every improvement (including Wonders and the Palace!) being eliminated before any units lose hp in a city with these phantom walls.

This is the problem with making Artillery go for Walls first over all else.

[Shogun Gunner]

oh, okay..that makes sense. I was about to say that I never broke down the virtual walls Well, that makes it difficult to destroy troops now doesn't it?

[Tacit_Exit]

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Erm, this was fixed in the v1.21f patch for PtW, the second-to-last patch. This really shouldn't be in C3C if it was fixed way back then.

Actually 'fixed' in PTW1.27f, at least according to readme.

[MrWhereItsAt]

Originally posted by Tacit_Exit


Actually 'fixed' in PTW1.27f, at least according to readme.

Odd - this is from my (newly reinstalled) readme for PtW:

Fixes in v1.21f:
*Fixed bug which caused walls not to be obsoleted by growing from a town to a city.

Are you sure?

[Niessuh]

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
Shogun Gunner - you CAN'T knock down those phantom walls. But since the game recognises that Walls are in effect, Artillery will attempt to take the Walls down first. This leads to every improvement (including Wonders and the Palace!) being eliminated before any units lose hp in a city with these phantom walls.

This is the problem with making Artillery go for Walls first over all else.

BUMP. Somebody knows if this problem has been fixed? I have't seen anything about it

[patcon]

There is one thing I don't understand about obsolete Wonders. If the Temple of Artemis puts a temple in every city and the Great Wall puts a wall aroiund every city, then why do those temples and walls suddenly disappear when ToA and GW become obsolete?

Problem:
(1) The game acts as if the actual physical temple exists in those cities that didn't have actual physical temples before ToA, except that I can't sell temples. So why do these virtual temples cease to exist later? Do the people become so disillusioned by losing their faith that they tear down these virtual temples (but not ones they built on their own, or the Temple of Artemis)? The same situation applies to city walls provided by the Great Wall. I could understand if metallurgy made all walls built before it ineffectual, so that all walls disappeared and had to be replaced by stronger ones, but the only ones that disappear are the ones provided by the GW.
(2) I can't build actual temples or walls in cities that didn't have them before while ToA or GW are active to protect myself from losing them later, so when the new tech which makes them obsolete comes along I have to run around building lost temples and walls instead of concentrating on new improvements.
(3) While ToA is active I can build cathedrals (which require temples) when the city has only the virtual temple provided by ToA, so when ToA expires I have a city with a cathedral but no temple, and if I'm in the middle of building a temple I can finish it (?).

Possible solution:
Is it feasible (or even currently possible) to flag a Wonder so that any city improvements it generates become permanent, but once it becomes obsolete it no longer generates these improvements in newly-acquired cities? I know I can change the Wonder flag to have it never expire, but that's not what I mean, it makes sense for certain wonders to lose their effect on new development after certain advances.

[Niessuh]

Well, I think that the idea with the construction of the Great Wall or Artemis is that they create the "effect" in your empire as if walls or temples were constructed in all your cities, but they does not construct physically one of them in every city. So once it becomes obsolete the effect is lost