Are the Vikings too powerful?

[chequita guevara]

The berserk unit is 6.2.1 and doesn't require a strategic resource, such as iron.The only other unit that powerful doesn't come 'till the end of the Middle Ages, when you get military tradition. It's a poweful enough unit to even take on rifleman. On top of all this, it can make amiphibious assaults, which more or less makes them immune to counter-attack, unless the ai decides to attack your ship, which isn't likely in that era.

I don't think the unit is warrented. In reality, the Vikings weren't the most powerful, toughest warriors in Europe. It's just that they mostly attacked unarmed, undefended settlements. When you're slaughtering defenseless monks, it's pretty easy to kick ass.

Yes, they conquered half of England, Normandy, and Sicily and Naples, but England wasn't really a country yet, France was undefended due to Charlemange's banning of castles for the nobility, and the Byzantines were having their asses hand to them on a plate by the Arabs and Turks and couldn't spare troops to defend its Italian possessions.

When the Vikings fought pitched battles, they lost as often as they won. They didn't conquer England (at least not until they were Francophied in Normandy for a few hundred years), failed in their invasion of Greece, etc. Compared to the Germans, who conquered half of Europe from the Romans, the Vikings were small potatoes.

I think the berserk should be changed. Make it a 3.2.1 unit with amphibious assault and it replaces the swordman. There is a reason the Scandinavians adopted more conventional methods of warfare during the middle ages.

[vmxa1]

There are fine as they are. The Ag trait will make other races look better to you. We have had a long time with PTW and the Vikes have not been a big problem.

[chequita guevara]

I don't remember them from PTW.

[asleepathewheel]

When PTW came out, it was thought that this would be a killer unit, but it hasn't turned out that way. A very nice unit, feared, but....And truly a unit that is only used properly in the human's hands. I have however seen them used in the middle ages scenario fairly effecitvely by the AI.

[DrSpike]

They arre fine as it is.

[Fried-Psitalon]

The Viking IS a powerful unit, but honestly, I called it this way from the early days and I stick with it now:

It is a powerful unit in a very specific environment, and hopelessly vulnerable in any other.

Berserks have to travel by galleys - CURRAGHS can sink galleys. Dromons eat them for lunch. If you have advanced berserks that use caravels, the risk is less, but curraghs and galleys can still be a significant threat and Dromons will always terrorize you.

Berserker boats can be sunk.

On land, you've got the Persian Immortal twice again. Six attack is great, but there are a *lot* of fast-attack units that tend to appear around this time, and they'll eat a Viking for lunch. Sure you can stack some pikes with them, but then you need iron, and Berserk+pike is a touch pricey for what is effectively one attack unit. I'll trade the two attack for another movement and a drop in price and call it a knight, thanks.

They're pretty good at counterattacking out of cities, I'll admit, but they're unlikely to get first strike against all the knights of that time.

So: Berserks, IMO, are extremely effective - but only in limited roles, making them a balanced UU for a balanced civ.

[asleepathewheel]

I recall one specific war where I took on a fairly large viking nation with knights. Due to the movement, and good positioning, I was able to take out what I wanted while denying them for the longest time a berzerk victory. (and thus their GA) On grasslands and plains, the are toast. A decent enough unit, but more limited than most, as FP has eloquently noted.

[Garth Vader]

I love them, but then I like playing small mass archipeligo, where almost all cities are coastal

You don't need a lot of them, build enough for a few galleys and use knights and pikes for occupation and clean-up.

I also noticed that the AI never attacked my ships.

[Theseus]

There IS a strategy that potentially makes Berserks overpowering...

[Hagbart]

Originally posted by Theseus
There IS a strategy that potentially makes Berserks overpowering...

Which strategy?

The people of Europe feared the Vikings during their time because of the stories about them raging and pillaging.
In real live they were more traders than bezerkers.

[Theseus]

Nothing but vet Archers and Spears, in droves. Drive for MGLs, but save them for Berserks and Pikes.

Unstoppable.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I don't remember them from PTW.

Probably a good indication that they are not overpowered. If they were you would be seeing lots of tlak about it.
The 6 attack is nice, for sure, but that 2 def can leave them vulnerable.

Adjusting UU's is a very delicate task.

[Arrian]

6/2/1 versus 4/3/3. Hmm. Gimme the 4/3/3, in almost every situation.

-Arrian

[MrWhereItsAt]

They are 70 shields too - Almost double the cost of MIs. With fortified Pikes in size 6+ cities you end with an even match anyway...

[Theseus]

Upgrades and Armies. Problem solved.

And I am not so sure about the defense modifiers during amphib attacks... this has never been cleared up.

Not that I think the original premise is on target... I think the Scandy are a pretty well balanced civ, and if anything a little weak; only in a few specific environmental circumstances, and only when handled to really max out their potential, are they conceivably out of whack.

(But it sure is fun when you can play'em that way! )