New Specialists: Civil Engineers

[Catt]

Originally posted by Dominae
It also adds a whole lot of micromanagement to the game: before, it was not really a big deal that were missing out on 30gpt somewhere down the line if you did not feel like micromanaging those corrupt cities; now, it's much more of a loss, so get ready to do a lot of left-clicking in the late-game (a lot more than before).

Yes, indeed. I often skipped the "irrrigate and specialize" tactic simply because I judged the MM effort (in workers and city management) versus the in-game effects to balance out as a net downgrade of game enjoyment for me (ymmv) - I did it sometimes, but not always, depending on mood and circumstance. With taxmen now producing 2 gold, scientists 3 beakers, and the availability of the CE to substantially lighten the burden of rush-buying necessary improvements, it just feels like I'm giving too much away if I don't undertake the effort.

I have so far resisted any desire to calculate whether or not it is more advantageous to have scientists or taxmen as the specialists at any given instance, or what the appropriate mix is, but I am sure that some of our more MM-enjoying players will feel the need or the desire to do so, resulting in even more city-viewing and left-clicking from turn to turn.

Catt

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Gyromancer
Hmmm. My understanding of how corruption works is that any city built would not affect the corruption of any city that was closer to the capital.

According to the corruption FAQ, the calculation of OCN corruption uses the rank of the city to determine if the "over OCN" penalties apply. Rank would not change if the new city was built farther out. So, you wouldn't want to throw these cheapo cities down inside your core, but there's nothing I see in the corruption rules to make you not want to throw them down on the other side of the world....

/me reads up on the Corruption FAQ...

You're quite right. It sounds wrong to me, though. Perhaps it was not always like this? If I have a core of 5 cities somewhat close to the capital, and 1000 cities at ~1000 tiles away, will Corruption in those 5 cities be the same as though those 1000 cities did not exist (assuming I'm not in Communism)?

Talk about unrealistic. The more cities you have the more Corrupt all your cities should be, no matter where they are. Distance should be a lot less of a factor than the bureaucracy of governing many people in many settlements (i.e. number of cities Corruption).


Dominae

[WarpStorm]

I agree, Dom. A simpler corruption based on total cities in your empire would seem better than the Rank based scheme in Civ3.

[monkeyman]

Originally posted by Gibsie
Didn't know they didn't help with military units, interesting... now all I need is someone to explain in detail how policemen work (Sometimes they help against shield loss, sometimes they don't)!

I second this! I haven't gotten past the middle ages yet in C3C, so this is all new to me... But how do the policemen impact this discussion? Is it useful in the outlying ag/specialist cities to throw policemen into the mix? And do they help with production for potential military uses? Inquiring minds want to know...

--mm

[MrWhereItsAt]

Re: Re: New Specialists: Civil Engineers

Originally posted by Gyromancer

Since the outer cities are hopelessly corrupt, I don't see any reason not to build more of them. Figure out what size city your luxes and wonder effects will support, and pack those cities in so that they will barely reach that size. No need for WLTK days, as the cities are hopelessly corrupt. Build Harbors, city walls, and whatever culture improvements strike your fancy.

I'm not so sure building 12 size 1 cities is any better than 1 size 12 ciy. This is Civ3, so the effort expended building these cities amounts to a whole tonne of shields and lost pop points in settlers built, whereas you only lose the one pop point in founding the one large city. Moreover, a size 12 city will still allow you to set up as much as 12 Scientists or Taxmen for at least a few turns at a time, although 12 size 1 cities on decent terrain should allow you 1 specialist per city EVERY turn. You would need to weight the pop cost of 12 settlers vs 1 alongisde the gains of 12 taxmen/scientists per turn EVERY turn vs the need to switch to food production again every few turns with a large city.

I'm not so sure that harbors are even worthwhile for cities without bonus coastal resources in the pure version of this strategy. These cities are really in a food-only economy mode, and the fact that the 2 food produced by a laborer in a harbored coastal square just barely feeds that laborer makes it seem like a waste to me.

If your city can grow and there are sea/coast tiles around, that harbour will allow you to at least keep your pop growing at a decent speed. Then with a larger pop you have more citizens to turn into taxmen/scientists, even if it is for a short time. The difference in a size 12 city thanks to a Harbour vs a size 6 city without is an extra 12gpt or 18bpt for at least 3-4 turns in 10.

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by WarpStorm
I agree, Dom. A simpler corruption based on total cities in your empire would seem better than the Rank based scheme in Civ3.

Can you say "patch", Firaxis/Breakaway?

(great thread MrWIA )

[Provost Harrison]

Very interesting, I will have to apply this to me present game where I have just past RP...it may make my consider actually doing something with cities if captured that I would otherwise just raze.

[The Viceroy]

Yes, came across this feature the other day in much the same way as some of you. I was looking to see if a policeman was any use in the city, realised it was not, and clicked again .. and there was our Civil Eng .. I almost missed it if It wasn't for the fact that the courthouse had gone from 80 down into the teens ..

I was about to say there seems to be a bug, in that it doesn't show up on your overall city stats (like the other specialist do), but maybe thats because its only used for buildings .. didn't realise that myself.

[Provost Harrison]

See I wasn't aware that corruption wasn't deducted from it, I tried it in one distant city and I got nothing, but of course, I was building a worker at the time so I wouldn't...but this has really got me thinking

[Kuciwalker]

Wow, I didn't know CE's didn't work on military units... I wonder if this is hardcoded or can be changed in the editor.

[MrWhereItsAt]

Looks like the "no effect on military units" is hardcoded.

[DrSpike]

Useable specialists certainly add a little depth to the game. New strategies will have to be developed.

[player1]

Well, if you could build units with them, then they would definetly go into overpowered cathegory for me.

[Donegeal]

I guess the big question is, can the AI utilize this? (could they EVER properly utilize specialist?) Has anyone done a city inspection of an AI civ and seen a specialist being used (other than an entertainer)? If the AI can't use them then they are overpowered already.

[Gibsie]

Well, if the AI gets productino bonuses and more limited corruption I think it's a fair trade. That's quite an if though.