Announcement

**korn469** · November 17, 2003, 16:30

here are some raw readme files, this is subject to changes, especially the units

Changes to Units

Non-combat Units
Settler 0.0.1 50/3 {Colonist}
*Colonist 0.0.2 50/3 Navigation
Worker 0.0.1 10/1 {Engineer}
*Engineer 0.0.1 10/1 (all terrain as roads) Steam Power
Scout 0.0.2 10 (invisible, hidden nationality, free upkeep) {Conquistador}
Chasqui Scout 1.1.2 10 (imc: hills, mountains) {Scout}
Explorer 0.0.2 20 (invisible, hidden nationality, free upkeep) Astronomy
**Conquistador 4.2.2 40 (invisible, all terrain as roads, blitz, zoc) horses Astronomy {Explorer}
**Army 0.0.2|3 150 (blitz, zoc, pillage, radar +6 hp)

Ancient Land Units
Warrior 2.1.1 20 {Legion}
Enkidu Warrior
Jaguar Warrior 2.1.2 20 (imc: forest, jungle) {Warrior}
Archer 3.1.1 20 {Bezerk}
Bowman 3.2.1 20 {Archer}
Javelineer 4.1.1 20 (enslave) {Bowman}
Swordsman 4.2.1 30 iron {Medieval Infantry}
Gallic Swordsman 5.2.2 40 iron {Swordsman}
Immortal 4.2.1 20 (-1 hp) iron {Gallic Swordsman}
Legion 4.2.1 30 (+2 hp) iron {Immortal}
Spearman 2.2.1 20 {Pikeman}
Hoplite 2.3.1 20 {Spearman}
Impi 2.2.2 20 {Hoplite}
Numideon Mercenary 3.4.1 30 (free upkeep) {Impi}
Chariot 3.1.2 30 (wheeled, zoc) horses {Mounted Warrior}
Three Man Chariot
War Chariot 3.1.2 30 (wheeled, zoc, +2 hp) horses {Chariot}
Horseman 3.1.3 40 (zoc) horses {War Elephant}
Mounted Warrior 3.1.3 40 (blitz, zoc, +1 hp) horses {Horseman}

Middle Age Land Units
Longbowman 7.2.1 40 {Musketeer}
Bezerk 12.4.1 60 (Amphibious, +1 hp) {Longbowman}
Medieval Infantry 8.5.1 50 iron {Rifleman} Chivalry
Pikeman 5.5.1 40 {Musketeer}
Swiss Mercenary 5.8.1 40 {Pikeman}
Musketman 11.11.1 60/1 saltpeter {Rifleman}
Musketeer 14.14.1 60/1 saltpeter {Musketman}
Knight 8.4.2 60 (zoc) iron, horses {Siphai}
Ansar Warrior 9.3.2 50 (blitz, zoc) iron, horses {Knight}
Keshik 8.2.2 40 (imc: mountains, hills, zoc) horses {Ansar Warrior}
Rider 8.4.3 60 (zoc) iron, horses {Keshik}
Samurai 8.6.2 60 (zoc) iron {Rider}
War Elephant 14.10.1 80 (zoc) {Samurai}
Cavalry 15.6.3 80/1 (zoc) horses, saltpeter {Panzer}
Cossack 15.8.4 (zoc) horses, saltpeter {Cavalry}
Siphai 22.6.3 80/1 (zoc) horses, saltpeter {Cossack}

Industrial Era Land Units
Guerrilla 4.1.3 15/1/3 10/2 (invisible, hidden nationality, lethal land bombardment, -3 hp, free upkeep, imc:all) Replaceable parts
Marine 30.15.2 120/1 (amphibious, zoc) rubber
Paratrooper 25.20.2 120/1 (10 air drop range, zoc) rubber
Rifleman 15.15.2 80/1 {Infantry}
Infantry 20.20.2 100/1 rubber
Tank 40.16.3 140/1 (wheeled, blitz, zoc, cannot airlift) iron, oil {Modern Armor}
Panzer 40.16.4 140/1 (wheeled, blitz, zoc, cannot airlift, +1hp, imc:forest) iron, oil {Tank}

Modern Land Units
*Special Forces 40.20.4 150 (amphibious, invisible, see invisible, 10 air drop range, blitz, -4 hp, imc:all) Computers
Tow Infantry 25.25.2 120|1 Computers
Mech Infantry 40.40.4 160/1 (wheeled, blitz, zoc, cannot airlift) iron, oil, rubber Miniturization
Modern Armor 60.20.4 180/1 (wheeled, blitz, zoc, cannot airlift) iron, oil, aluminum

Seige
Catapult 0.1.1 8/1/4 40 (wheeled) iron {Cannon}
Trebuchet
Cannon 0.1.1 18/1/6 80 (wheeled) iron, saltpeter {Artillary}
Hwacha 0.1.1 24/1/6 80 (wheeled) saltpeter
Artillary 0.2.2 25/2/8 120 (helicopter transportable) iron
Radar Artillary 0.2.3 30/2/5 160 (wheeled, blitz, cannot airlift) aluminum, oil

Missile
Cruise Missile 0.0.1 60 40/5/2 (leathal land, leathal sea, can load into Aegis Cruisers and nuclear subs) aluminum
Tactical Nuke 0.0.1 180 10 aluminum, uranium
ICBM 0.0.1 250 aluminum, uranium

Ancient Naval Units
Curragh
Galley 2.2.4 30|2 (wheeled, sink in sea, sink in ocean) {Sloop}
Dromon

Middle Age Naval Units
*Sloop 5.3.5 50 (sink in ocean, imc: sea) {Man-o-War} Astronomy
Caravel 2.3.4 60|3 (-1 hp, sink in ocean, imc: sea) {Galleon}
Carrack
Galleon 2.3.5 80|4 (-1 hp, imc: sea, ocean) {Transport}
Frigate 12.9.2 12/1/1 100 (all terrain as roads, blitz) {Ironclad}
Man-o-War 16.12.2 12/1/1 100 (all terrain as roads, blitz)
Privateer 8.2.7 40 (hidden nationality, imc: sea, ocean) Navigation

Industrial Era Naval Units
Ironclad 20.16.3 20/1/1 120 (all terrain as roads, blitz) iron, coal Steel {Battleship}
Transport 2.5.8 100 (-1 hp, imc: sea, ocean) oil
Battleship 48.38.3 30/2/2 240 (all terrain as roads, blitz) iron, coal, oil
Destroyer 16.26.4 16/1/1 120 (all terrain as roads, blitz) oil {Aegis Cruiser}
Submarine 16.6.3 120 (all terrain as roads, blitz, invisible, detect invisible)
Aircraft Carrier 2.8.3 200|5 (all terrain as roads, blitz, radar) iron, rubber Advanced Flight

Modern Naval Units
Nuclear Sub 16.20.3 180|3 (all terrain as roads, blitz, invisible, detect invisible)
Aegis Cruiser 25.35.4 25/1/1 160|2 (all terrain as roads, blitz, radar, detect invisible, *transport cruise missiles) aluminum, oil

Industrial Era Air Units
Fighter 5.5.2 25/6/2 120 (blitz, lethal sea bombard, *foot soldier) oil {F-15}
Bomber 0.2.1 20/10/6 150 oil, rubber {Jet Bomber}
Helicopter 0.2.3 0/6/0 100 oil, rubber

Modern Air Units
Jet Fighter 20.20.3 35/8/2 180 (blitz, radar, lethal sea bombard) aluminum, oil
F-15 30.30.3 35/8/2 180 (blitz, radar, lethal sea bombard, precision strike, *foot soldier) aluminum, oil {Jet Fighter}
*Jet Bomber 0.6.2 30/14/6 220 (blitz, radar) aluminum, oil Rocketry
Stealth Fighter 0.1.2 32/12/4 250 (blitz, stealth, radar, precision strike) aluminum, oil, uranium
Stealth Bomber 0.1.1 65/120/10 450 (stealth, radar, precision strike) aluminum, oil, uranium
__________________________

Changes to Diplomats and Spies
*Build an Embassy cost 15
*Investigate City cost 5
*Steal Technology cost 8
*Steal World Map cost 1
*Plant Spy cost 45
*Steal Plans cost 5
*Initiate Propaganda cost 60
*Sabotage Production cost 8
*Expose Enemy Mole cost 60
__________________________

Changes to Culture

In awe of
Culture Ratio 5:1
Chance of Successful Propaganda: 60%
Initial Resistance Chance: 20%
Continued Resistance Chance: 10%

Admirers of
Culture Ratio 3:1
Chance of Successful Propaganda: 45%
Initial Resistance Chance: 35%
Continued Resistance Chance: 25%

Impressed with
Culture Ratio 5:4
Chance of Successful Propaganda: 30%
Initial Resistance Chance: 50%
Continued Resistance Chance: 40%

On par with
Culture Ratio 4:5
Chance of Successful Propaganda: 25%
Initial Resistance Chance: 60%
Continued Resistance Chance: 55%

Unimpressed by
Culture Ratio 1:3
Chance of Successful Propaganda: 15%
Initial Resistance Chance: 75%
Continued Resistance Chance: 70%

Dismissive of
Culture Ratio 1:5
Chance of Successful Propaganda: 5%
Initial Resistance Chance: 90%
Continued Resistance Chance: 85%

Disdainful of
Culture Ratio 1:10
Chance of Successful Propaganda: 1%
Initial Resistance Chance: 100%
Continued Resistance Chance: 98%
__________________________

Changes to Improvements and Wonders

Improvements
Capital
Palace 100/1/0 Center of Empire, +1 Happy

Happiness
Temple 60/1/1 +1 Happy (Religious)
Coliseum 120/2/2 +2 Happy
Cathedral 160/2/2 +3 Happy [Temple] (Religious)

Economic
Marketplace 100/0/1 +50% Tax Output, Increases Luxury Trade (Commercial)
Bank 150/0/3 +50% Tax Output [Marketplace] (Commercial)
*Stock Exchange 220/0/4 +50% Tax Output [Bank] (Commercial) The Corporation

Trade
Harbor 80/0/1 Allows Water Trade, Increases Food in Water (Commercial, Coastal)
Air Port 160/0/2 Allows Air Trade, +50% Luxury Output 1 Pollution {Oil} (Commercial)

Military
Walls 20/0/0 +50% Defense, 12 Bombard Defense (Militaristic)
Coastal Fortress 40/0/1 16 Naval Power, 12 Naval Bombard Defense {Iron, Saltpeter} (Militaristic, Coastal)
Barracks 80/0/2 Veteran Ground Units (Militaristic) Warrior Code
*Naval Base 120/0/3 Veteran Sea Units [Harbor] (Militaristic, Coastal) Astronomy
*Airforce Installation 160/0/4 Veteran Air Units {Oil} (Militaristic) Flight
SAM Missile Battery 120/0/2 Airpower 12 (Militaristic)

Production
*Mill 160/0/2 +25% Production, Must be Near a River; Engineering
Factory 240/0/4 +50% Production, 2 Pollution {Iron}
Manufacturing Plant 320/0/5 +50% Production, 1 Pollution [Factory] {Aluminum}
Coal Plant 160/0/4 +50% Production, 3 Pollution [Factory] {Coal}
Hydro Plant 240/0/4 +50% Production, Must be Near a River [Factory] {Iron}
Solar Plant 320/0/4 +50% Production [Factory] {Rubber}
Nuclear Plant 240/0/4 +100% Production, 1 Pollution, Must be Near Water, Can Explode or Meltdown [Factory] {Uranium}
Offshore Platform 240/0/3 Increases Shields in Water, 2 Pollution (Coastal)

Research
Library 80/1/1 +50% Research Output (Scientific) Writing
University 200/3/3 +50% Research Output [Library] (Scientific)
Research Lab 240/1/4 +50% Research Output [University] (Scientific)

Corruption
Courthouse 80/1/1 Reduces Corruption
*Newspaper 120/1/2 Reduces Corruption, Resistant to Propaganda [Library] Printing Press
Police Station 180/1/2 Reduces Corruption, Reduces War Weariness [Courthouse]

Growth
Granary 60/0/1 Doubles City Growth Rate
Aqueduct 100/0/1 Allows City Size Level 2
Hospital 160/0/2 Allows City Size Level 3

Pollution
Mass Transit 200/0/3 Removes Population Pollution {Rubber}
Recycling Center 200/0/3 Removes Building Pollution

Cultural
*Amphitheater 80/3/1 Literature
*Opera 160/8/2 [Amphitheater] Music Theory
*Museum 240/14/4 [Opera] Atomic Theory
**Obelisk 0/2/0 cannot be built only appears through the Pyramids
__________________________

Wonders
Happiness
Hanging Gardens 300/4/0 3 happy, 1 happy in all cities expires with Steam Power {Ind}
Oracle 300/4/0 [2x Temple] Doubles happiness of temples expires with Theology {Rel}
Sistine Chapel 600/6/0 [2x Cathedral] Doubles happiness of Cathedrals {Rel}
JS Bach's Cathedral 600/6/0 [2x Cathedral] 2 happy, 2 happy in all cities expires with Genetics {Rel, Con}
Cure for Cancer 1000/8/0 [2x Research Lab] 6 happy, 2 happy in all cities {Sci}

Economic
Colossus 200/2/0 +1 trade in all trade producing squares expires with Mass Production {Ex, Com, Coastal)
Wall Street 300/1/0 [4x Stock Exchange] Treasury Earns 5% {Com}

Trade
Great Lighthouse 300/2/0 [2x Harbor] Safe Sea Travel, +1 Ship Movement expires with Magnetism {Exp, Com, Coa}
Magellan's Voyage [2x Harbor] 400/3/0 +1 Ship Movement expires with Nuclear Power {Exp, Com, Coa}
Smith's Trading Company 600/4/0 Pays Maintenance for trade Installations {Com}

Military
Great Wall 200/2/0 Doubles combat vs. Barbs, Doubles City Defense expires with Metallurgy {Mil, Ind}
Sun Tzu's Art of War 600/3/0 Barracks in every city on the continent expires with Motorized Transport{Mil}
Leonardo's Workshop 600/3/0 Halves upgrade cost {Mil}
Universal Suffrage 900/4/0 Reduces war weariness in all cities {Mil}
Manhattan Project 800/2/0 [2x University] Allows all civs to build Nukes {Mil, Sci, Ind} Uranium
Heroic Epic 200/4/0 Increased chance of leaders, Requires a victorious army expires with Military Tradition {Mil, Rel} (note: The Heroic Epic is now a great wonder)
Military Academy 400/1/0 Build armies without leaders {Mil} (note: victorious army requirement removed)
Pentagon 400/1/0 Build larger armies, requires 4 armies, requires a victorious army {Mil}
Strategic Missile Defense 800/1/0 [5x SAM batteries] Decreased chance of missile attacks {Mil, Sci}
Intelligence Agency 400/1/0 Allows spy missions {Mil, Sci}
Battlefield Medicine 500/1/0 [5x Hospital] Healing in enemy territory {Mil}

Production
Hoover Dam 1200/3/0 gain hydro plant in every city on continent, must be near a river {Ind}
Iron Works 400/1/0 +100% production, 4 pollution, requires coal and iron in city radius {Ind}

Research
Great Library 400/4/0 [2x Library] Gain any advances owned by two civs expires with Education {Sci}
Copernicus's Observatory 400/4/0 doubles research output expires with Space Flight {Exp, Sci}
Newton's University 500/5/0 [2x University] doubles research output {Sci}
Theory of Evolution 600/6/0 +2 free advances {Sci}
SETI Program 1200/8/0 [3x University] doubles research output {Sci, Exp}
Apollo Program 500/3/0 build spaceship parts {Sci, Ind} Aluminum

Corruption
Forbidden Palace 150/1/0 reduces corruption {Exp, Rel}

Growth
Longevity 1200/8/0 [2x research Lab] city growth causes +2 pop {Sci, Exp}

Pollution
N/A

Cultural
Pyramids 200/4/0 gives an obelisk in each city on the continent expires with Monotheism {Ind, Rel}
Shakespeare's Theater 400/16/0 [2x Opera] 2 happy, +50% Luxury Output
United Nations 1200/15/0 Allows diplomatic victory {Exp, Com}
__________________________

Space Ship Parts
SS Thrusters 600 Aluminum
SS Engine 1200 Aluminum, Uranium
SS Docking Bay 300 Oil, Rubber
SS Cockpit 600 Aluminum
SS Fuel Cells 300 Uranium, Rubber
SS Life Support System 600 Aluminum
SS Stasis Chamber 600 Aluminum
SS Storage/Supply 300 Oil, Rubber
SS Planetary Party Lounge 300 Oil, Rubber
SS Exterior Casing 1200 Aluminum, Uranium
__________________________

Changes to Resources

*All strategic resources set to have a disappearance rate of 900
*Uranium's Appearance ratio changed from 100 to 80
*Oil can now be in plains
*Game can now be in jungle
*moved appearance of uranium to atomic theory
*moved appearance of aluminum to mass production
__________________________

**korn469** · November 17, 2003, 16:43

Ok besides actually using the editor to make all of the changes, I need to look over the units again. My thoughts are this

*no lethal land bombard, with 3-4-6-9 hitpoints a 1 hp unit is as good as dead, but in the spirit of combined arms players should need ground units
*I need to do some more work on UU balance
*I need to probably make armies more expensive in light of their new powers.
*Just check everything one last time

Some things I'm thinking of experimenting with
*moving the luxury bonus from markets and giving it to stock exchanges
*making either the first seven start techs untradable or making every ancient tech untradable. I think early tech trading and whoring disrupts the flow of the game, and I'd like to combat this some
*add plauge to the Blitz Mod

**lockstep** · November 17, 2003, 17:13

Hi Korn,

I probably won't have any time to playtest the new version of your mod, but I'll try to partipate in the discussion of the new features. I'm especially interested in making 'cultural dominance' a distinctive strategy, as opposed to culture as a nice side-effect.

Just one error in your readme: You don't have to list the Stock Exchange as a new building anymore. It has been here since PtW.

Anyhow, good luck!

**korn469** · November 19, 2003, 19:37

thanks lockstep, maybe when I get the blitz mod to a fairly final stage you can play a game or two for fun

**bigvic** · November 21, 2003, 01:06

add lots of moderm units, like all thosewwii and others - ai does kool things when given lots of options that change frequently as a result of new techs.

example - i modded the crap out of teturkhan, reassigning all those animations, creating a situation where beginning in early/mid industrial age thgimgs start hoppin in terms o units made available by techs. i did things like give fantasy modern uus to some of the added ai civs, and some units were only buildable for a couple of researh tech periods. thats ok, cause low upgrade price made it kool and ai friendly, and since the upgraded version was only marginally superior, so what? it felt more realistic, better for a almost modern era assault infantry, feprersented by the at animation, fight a wwi era machinew gunner, repped by the same named unit. i had to monkey w/ the tech tree to do this.

in the mod i'm doing now, i plan to add some more techs to lengthen certain, esp the industrial, age. now i get all those kool napoleonic animations to monkey with. nice

**TechWins** · November 21, 2003, 03:02

Ahhhh too much info at once. I don't know where to start looking at first.

I'll just do a quick run down on some of my thoughts. I don't think that all those cultural buildings are necessary. They clutter the game with too many improvements to build. The only one I would recommend keeping is the Opera under Music Theory to add a bit more flavor to the game. The Pyramids should go back to it's old function of buidling a granary in each city instead of the obelisk. The Temple of Artemis sort of does a similar function except even better.

I don't like the Engineer since it only adds more late game tedium. The Engineer will be getting things done faster only increasing the amount of time you have to deal with engineers. If I trusted automation more I would probably like the addition. Otherwise I don't.

3-4-6-9 is too high for HPs if you ask me. If you're going to increase the levels then I would only do it to 2-3-5-7 at most. Battles will take longer with an increase in HP, and I think 3-4-6-9 is too much for that reason. Also, artillery will not be as useful. Currently an elite unit that is bombarded once in the early game will lose one HP making that unit 4/5. Now it would be 8/9 which doesn't give as much of an advantage to artillery. With 2-3-5-7 it wouldn't be such a bad ratio at 6/7 (better than both 4/5 and 8/9 imo).

Get rid of the mill. There is enough production as is. The mill only increases the amount of improvements you can build, and improvements can be built quickly enough as is even in the middle ages.

The Colonist is only redundant to the Settler.

*Gunpowder now has Education as a prereq in addition to invention

This I like.

Although, the units before Gunpowder need to be equally balanced including UUs, which I still have to look at. Such as in current rules of Civ. The Berserker would be way too powerful with this rule in effect. Since it has 6 attack and the only defense against for a long time would be 3 at best (or 4 considering other UUs) it would be even more unbalancing than what I think it is now.

As for the units I don't particularly like drastic changes in unit values. I don't like there being such large of a gap between units that are of the same time period.

I like the changes to combat experience in regards to retreat bonuses.

Just looking at Republic and Monarchy I would say Monarchy is extremely better than the Republic. Far better support, no ww, and lower corruption. I recommend addressing that.

-------

It all looks good, but a lot of getting used to (again). My main opinion is that there are too many drastic changes and toning them down a bit would be more beneficial. I would give more feedback, but there is just too much to look at it all at once. At any rate good job on all the work you've done.

**lockstep** · November 21, 2003, 11:34

Originally posted by TechWins
I don't think that all those cultural buildings are necessary. They clutter the game with too many improvements to build. The only one I would recommend keeping is the Opera under Music Theory to add a bit more flavor to the game.

IMO, additional buildings that solely yield a large amount of culture (combined with the lower cultural value of happiness and science buildings) are everything BUT flavour. As I said, cultural dominance needs to be a distinctive strategy that also comes with opportunity costs.

Originally posted by korn 469
Cultural
*Amphitheater 80/3/1 Literature
*Opera 160/8/2 [Amphitheater] Music Theory
*Museum 240/14/4 [Opera] Atomic Theory

korn, you may remember our discussions about the appropriate prerequisite for Museums. I suggested Communism (because IMO cultural buildings should only come with optional techs), but you argued that Communism was already too attractive for the AI. Conquests may offer a solution to this dilemma: attach Museums to Fascism.

**korn469** · November 21, 2003, 15:29

TechWins,

Culture only buildings are a big part of the Blitz Mod so I'm going to leave them in. Though I'm thinking of changing the Amphitheater to 50/2/1, and then possibly changing the colliseum's cultural value to 1, so that Amphitheaters would still be the most potent culture producing improvement in the ancient era.

Point taken about engineers and colonists, I think I'll go with you and drop them.

As far as hit points go I'm not changing them. 3-4-6-9 is the first 2hp heal plateua. Anything lower means they only heal 1hp per turn. Because of that, anything between normal civ3 and 3-4-6-9 takes too long for units to recover imo. Also with the changes in hps vet and elite units are worth more, which coresponds directly to military building that are more expensive. Your point about bombard units being less effective doesn't hold true, since I've increased RoF.

I may or may not keep the mill. If I do I'll make it go obsolete with steam power.

Monarchy does have low war weariness (feudalism doesn't), and Republic out supports it untill you have either 11 towns or 7 cities. Though if republic is too weak I could always increase the free units from 20 to 25.

Lockstep,

Neat suggestion. I think I'll do that, except move Police Stations to Fascism and Museums to Communism (which to me makes more sense). I'm also thinking of giving democracy a small wonder called Bill of Rights that provides 2 happiness in all cities to counterbalance the power of both communism and fascism.

**TechWins** · November 21, 2003, 15:31

(combined with the lower cultural value of happiness and science buildings)

I forgot to take that into consideration. So disregard my previous comments about taking the cultural buildings away.

*making either the first seven start techs untradable or making every ancient tech untradable. I think early tech trading and whoring disrupts the flow of the game, and I'd like to combat this some

I was thinking of the doing the same for my personal mod. Possibly keeping it as the early part of the ancient age throwing in a few middle ages techs. Truly representing the dark ages more by disallowing certain techs not to be traded.

**lockstep** · November 21, 2003, 16:17

Korn, I'm currently drafting a little mod called 'Cultural Dominance'. The idea is to add culture only-buildings and (for aesthetic reasons) symmetric cultural levels, but besides that leave the epic game as it is. Some thoughts:

I won't mess with cultural values of Great and Small Wonders (ranging from 1 to 8),
I will slightly reduce the cultural values of scientific buildings and of the colosseum (but not mess with temples because players are used to the 5-turn border expansion),
Amphitheatre, Opera and Museum will have cultural values of either 4/5/6 or 4/6/8 (so that the Museum is at most on par with Shakespeare's), with appropriately balanced shield costs.

So I'd be interested in your reasoning for amplifying the cultural value of the new buildings up to 14 in the blitz mod (which, at least to me, would strongly favor a 'cultural dominance' strategy), but also upping the culture of most Great Wonders (which somewhat counters said strategy).

P.S.: The reason I want to attach Museums to Fascism is to change as little as possible.

**korn469** · November 21, 2003, 17:57

lockstep,

The reason I upped the cultural value of Opera's and Museums is for the following two reasons. My first reason is because of the age multiplier for cultural buildings. If you build a temple, amphitheater, etc in 500bc for example, it would produce 2 extra culture by 1500ad. A cultural improvement built in 1000ad wouldn't add any extra culture until 2000ad. Because of uneven turns per year, early cheaper structures can outproduce new cultural structures on a per shield basis if you build them quick enough. A museum costs three times as much as an amphitheater (before any changes). An amphitheater produces 1 culture per about 27 shields, whereas a museum produces 1 culture per about 17 shields. If an amphitheater has a one or two culture bonus from age it would go down to 20 and 16 shields per culture point. Does that make sense?

My second reason builds on that. If you get behind in the cultural race, it'd be hard to build your way out of it. Whoever gets the early lead could coast on in to a cultural victory. In my system a strong empire could turn to culture later on and surpass a civ that started strong culturally then switched to another strategy (without needing to burn down all of the enemy's cities).

As far as great wonders went, I tried to give them about an even amount of culture based on their shield costs, except for the "cultural" wonders.

**korn469** · November 21, 2003, 18:39

lockstep,

Also you may want to take the religious ability into account. If you don't change the stats on temples any at all then they provide 1 culture per 15 shields. That's one of the big reasons I nerfed them to an extent.

**lockstep** · November 21, 2003, 18:55

Originally posted by korn469
Because of uneven turns per year, early cheaper structures can outproduce new cultural structures on a per shield basis if you build them quick enough ... Does that make sense?

If you build an amphitheater 'quick enough' - say, after beelining to Literature - your cities will be typically size 6 or lower, perhaps save your capital. Building a museum should typically take place in cities of about size 12 and with higher production (perhaps no factories yet, but at least some railroads). So, I'd be perfectly willing to spend more shields per culture point simply because I have more shields.

BTW, if you're really worried about the low shields-per-culture ratio of ancient buildings, you'd also have to make drastically changes to cathedrals (80 SPC) vs. culture-doubled temples (30 SPC) and universities vs. libraries.

In my system a strong empire could turn to culture later on and surpass a civ that started strong culturally then switched to another strategy (without needing to burn down all of the enemy's cities).

While I generally agree with you, I wouldn't want to enable a strategy to get your culture up and running really late - say, in the mid-industrial age - and still be able to surpass a civ that started their culture buildings much earlier. And I suspect that your Museum's massive cultural value does exactly that. OTOH, I need to do some more thorough calculations.

P.S.: I noticed this just now - what's the point of giving cultural value to anti-corruption buildings, at least gameplay-wise?

**korn469** · November 21, 2003, 19:11

lockstep,

If you build an amphitheater 'quick enough' - say, after beelining to Literature - your cities will be typically size 6 or lower, perhaps save your capital. Building a museum should typically take place in cities of about size 12 and with higher production (perhaps no factories yet, but at least some railroads). So, I'd be perfectly willing to spend more shields per culture point simply because I have more shields.

also remember at this point it takes longer and longer for cultural expansion to occur

While I generally agree with you, I wouldn't want to enable a strategy to get your culture up and running really late - say, in the mid-industrial age - and still be able to surpass a civ that started their culture buildings much earlier.

this is only a worry if one civ stops building cultural buildings and the other doesn't. if a civ has a lead and continues to build cultural buildings it will be hard to catch up. also museums require both amphitheaters and opera's so that also slows done cultural laggards from catching up as quickly

I noticed this just now - what's the point of giving cultural value to anti-corruption buildings, at least gameplay-wise?

two reasons

1. I consider buildings such as courthouses etc, a powerful tool of political socialization, which in Civ terms (imo) is one of the components of culture. Because of that it should fall under culture buildings. Additionally it lowers the relative cultural value for science and happiness buildings.

2. It slows down war mongering. The cities you take over take longer to get back up to speed.

Announcement

Planning thread for the Blitz Mod: Conquests Version

Planning thread for the Blitz Mod: Conquests Version

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