Plans for C3C version of Patch Suggestion MOD (also known as Player1 MOD)

[TechWins]

Well, not that much horrible.

In terms of it being a UU it is horrible. I'm not saying it's not an improvement over the jet fighter, but it's definitely not enough in comparision to what some UUs have.

It's designed to be weak and cheap wonder.

At 200 shields in the ancient age it isn't exactly cheap. Building a cathedral at 160 shields in the middle ages takes a lot less time than buidling this at 200 shields. Granted Cure for Cancer is definitely overpriced and not worthwhile, but does that give reason to keep the Mausoleum of Mausollos useless? There needs to be some sort of balancing between the wonders, and for sure Mausoleum of Mausollos needs to be addressed.

I don't have problem with this unit.

I meant to write 2.3.1 originally not 3.21, btw. The price of 30 shields is meager since this unit is still powerful leading into the middle ages. The unit is better than the pikemen in two different ways. The NM has 2 att and does not require iron. The fact that the NM does not require iron is a huge disadvantage for other civs when it comes to the middle ages. The fact that the NM has a 2 att and 3 def makes it the elite unit of the ancient age. It's simply just not balanced. The musketman is only 1 def better, has the same attack, twice the shield cost, and requires saltpeter. The Carthaginians simply stockpile the NMs in the ancient age and they stay powerful throughout over half of the middle ages. Not to mention that NMs upgrade to pikemen which are weaker units. What would ever be the point of upgrading a NM to a pikemen? You simply get a lesser unit. The NM being 2.3.1 is very unbalanced and should be changed to 2.2.1 for so many different reasons.

Regarding the upgrade paths, they need to be revised. The Berserker upgrades to the Longbowmen, why? Maybe I'm missing something here on a lot of these upgrade paths.

About the Berserker, too powerful. I'm sure you can agree with me on this one. It gets a +2 on att and a +1 on def compared to the Longbowmen. I would say change the unit to either 5.2.1 or 5.1.1. A 6 attack is too high for that time period considering it comes before musketmen even do, and it doesn't require any resources.

It's obviously still your choice, but I hope I could at least provide you with some insight on my opinion. Since I've been playing more again, and I'm encountering a lot of new aspects to the game I got a whole lot of ideas/opinions on what should be changed.

[player1]

In terms of it being a UU it is horrible. I'm not saying it's not an improvement over the jet fighter, but it's definitely not enough in comparision to what some UUs have.

Don't foget that it has some other extra abilities compared to Jet Fighter, like precision bombing, stealth attack and lethal land bombardment (good for killing annoying obsolete units).

At 200 shields in the ancient age it isn't exactly cheap. Building a cathedral at 160 shields in the middle ages takes a lot less time than buidling this at 200 shields. Granted Cure for Cancer is definitely overpriced and not worthwhile, but does that give reason to keep the Mausoleum of Mausollos useless? There needs to be some sort of balancing between the wonders, and for sure Mausoleum of Mausollos needs to be addressed.

Well, it is not usless. Not to much good? Yes. But, not useless.
In time when you get it, it could be good investment for cities you plan to get to 12 pop early. And obviously, making it any cheaper would make it even cheaper then some city improvements. Sure, it can also get handy when AI beats you in building other more worthy wonders (and you don't want to lose hard earned shields).

I meant to write 2.3.1 originally not 3.21, btw. The price of 30 shields is meager since this unit is still powerful leading into the middle ages. The unit is better than the pikemen in two different ways. The NM has 2 att and does not require iron. The fact that the NM does not require iron is a huge disadvantage for other civs when it comes to the middle ages. The fact that the NM has a 2 att and 3 def makes it the elite unit of the ancient age. It's simply just not balanced. The musketman is only 1 def better, has the same attack, twice the shield cost, and requires saltpeter. The Carthaginians simply stockpile the NMs in the ancient age and they stay powerful throughout over half of the middle ages. Not to mention that NMs upgrade to pikemen which are weaker units. What would ever be the point of upgrading a NM to a pikemen? You simply get a lesser unit. The NM being 2.3.1 is very unbalanced and should be changed to 2.2.1 for so many different reasons.

You can't upgrade NM to pikemen, only to Musketeer.
And personally, with this resoniong you could easliy say that Hoplite is overpowered (3 defense for 20 shields).
By adding +1 to attack and +10shields in price NM is in fact crippled for UU (at least IMO).

Regarding the upgrade paths, they need to be revised. The Berserker upgrades to the Longbowmen, why? Maybe I'm missing something here on a lot of these upgrade paths.

It upgrades to Guerilla, since Vikings can't build Longbowmen.
Beserker replaces Longbowmen so they have same upgrade path (to Guerilla).

About the Berserker, too powerful. I'm sure you can agree with me on this one. It gets a +2 on att and a +1 on def compared to the Longbowmen. I would say change the unit to either 5.2.1 or 5.1.1. A 6 attack is too high for that time period considering it comes before musketmen even do, and it doesn't require any resources.

Don't forget the cost!
It's 70 shields, and has defense of 2, which makes it an easy target for any cavalry unit.

It's best in maps with lots of water, since then they are not too much vulnerable, but even then some enemy Galley could make a difference.

By the way 4 vs 6 attack is similar difference to 2 vs 3 attack (like Mounted Warrior for example).

It is powerful UU, but not out control, and still a lot of map dependent.

It's obviously still your choice, but I hope I could at least provide you with some insight on my opinion. Since I've been playing more again, and I'm encountering a lot of new aspects to the game I got a whole lot of ideas/opinions on what should be changed.

No problem.

[player1]

Some extra things added to the list:

Due to low rate of fire, Fighter and Jet Fighter are pretty useless for bombardment. That's why I'll increase their RoF from 1 to 2. Also, since Jet Fighters are probably better bombers then basic Fighter, Jet Fighters will get bombard rating increased from 3 to 4. That will at least make them good against Transport ships.

Stl. Fighter and F-15 will get bombard rating increased from 6 to 8. Regarding Stl. Fighter, it was done with purpose of making it more balanced compared to Stl. Bomber. With new bombard rating, two Stl. Fighters will do same damage as one Stl. Bomber against unit with defense of 8. In case of higher defense, Stl. Bombers would be a better choice, while in case of lower defense, Stl. Fighters would be more cost effective. As for F-15, it just follows same progression as Stl. Fighter, while also keeping advantage compared to normal Jet Fighter (around 50% better bombardment).

[TechWins]

Don't foget that it has some other extra abilities compared to Jet Fighter, like precision bombing, stealth attack and lethal land bombardment (good for killing annoying obsolete units).

Ha, but I still influenced you. You made the F-15 better. Although, it was probably just to keep the 50% bombard advantage over jet fighters.

Well, it is not usless. Not to much good? Yes. But, not useless.

Of course not useless; that was an exaggeration. However, it is not worth the cost to build. It being made as a backup wonder to build just so your shields don't get wasted isn't exactly very meaningful. My point is that this wonder, as well as other wonders, need to be tweaked in order to make them worthwhile to build.

You can't upgrade NM to pikemen, only to Musketeer.

Yeah, the editor shows it upgrades to pikemen along with beserker up to longbowmen. I forgot about the fact that it isn't put in the to build list. My mistake.

And personally, with this resoniong you could easliy say that Hoplite is overpowered (3 defense for 20 shields). By adding +1 to attack and +10shields in price NM is in fact crippled for UU (at least IMO)

I wouldn't say that at all. Considering the Hoplite can never go on the attack, whereas the NM is very potent on the attack in the ancient age and still formiddable in the middle ages. The NM is especially even more dominant when there are scarce resources available to all surrounding civs.

It's 70 shields, and has defense of 2, which makes it an easy target for any cavalry unit.

It's the same cost as a knight, so I don't consider it being 70 shields that high, regardless of it being 30 shields higher than a normal longbowmen. Also, only considering normal units it has the highest attack by 2, so for 70 shields it is more than worth the cost.

By the way 4 vs 6 attack is similar difference to 2 vs 3 attack (like Mounted Warrior for example).

The difference is that there is a 2 defensive unit available to defend against the MW. The best unit available to defend against the berserker is 3. That's a 3/2 and a 6/3 ratio. A lot different if you ask me. Then to have a chance to defend after that you will have to have saltpeter just to get that same 3/2 (6/4) ratio.

I, also, don't see how it's map dependent. Then again you may have more experience with it than I do. But it seems to me all you would have to do is slap a few pikemen and a few berserkers together to reak as much havoc as you want to early on in the middle ages.

I really like that there UUs that give civs an advantage a certain point in the game, because it adds a lot of strategy. However, I feel that some of the civs are given unfair advantages (and others aren't given enough of an advantage to balance it all out.

[Balastulin]

Re: Plans for C3C version of Patch Suggestion MOD (also known as Player1 MOD)

Originally posted by player1
While modern Carriers are faster then old WWII Battleships, movement cost of 7 is way too much. That makes them fastest ships after Destroyers, which is ridiculous considering that Battleships and Carriers are same sized ships. That's why Carriers will get movement lowered from 7 to 6 (still faster then Battleships).

I think that its perfectly fair as it stands considering battlehips generally had a top speed of 30 kts, cruising at 20-25 and modern aircraft carriers have top speeds sometimes in excess of 40 kts, and cruise at 30-35.

[player1]

Well I looked in some book I have about naval units, and I saw that Carriers go from 24-34 knots (with 34 knots leading USA's Enterprise).

And Cruisers go from 30-35 knots.

So I guess that generaly Cruisers and faster then Carriers (although there are few faster Carriers around).

[player1]

It looks that MOD will take more time then I thought.

I upgraded my system from 333Mhz Celeron to 2600+ Atlon. It looked great at first (especialy Civ3, which had faster turn processing and smooth graphics).

But, few days later, computer crashed badly, and I'm unable to access all my data (which is moved from my old to new comp), including working version of MOD.

Now, I'm typing this from my father laptop (until all gets fixed).



By the way, recently I was toying with idea to do following changes to governments:

Feudalism unit cost to be changed from 3 to 1gp.
Should still keep it balanced, since there is still a some WW and low free support for 7+ pop cities.


Republic free unit number to be changed to 2 units for cities (7+) and metropolis (13+), since considering that comparing C3C republic to old one, new one is better if you have less units then 6 per city and less units then 8 per metro. Makes Democracy even worse then before as option.

While C3C rules toned down republic in early period (towns), it was pretty much boosted for later periods (maybe even unintentionally).

Still, even with this change, it would stay better then pre-C3C, Rebublic if having 4 or less units per city or metro, which is not difficuly if playing peacefully, and somehow it looks that BreakAway did intended to make Republic more peace oriented (and balanced) then before.


Of course, there is possibility, that I would keep govenments unmoded, and add alternate version of this mod with these two govenments modified.

[player1]

Bad news people.
It looks I lost all my data from last crash.

This includes testing version of this mod as all other mods too.

Luckly, other mods can be donwloaded wia web, and I could use donwload from this threa, instead of rebuiding the mod from scratch.

[player1]

Here is next beta version.

Now suggested changes to Feudalism and Republic are added.

Also, added unload flag to Curragh and changed Curragh AI strategy from Naval Power to Naval Transport.
This will make AI build them more often (thanks for tips to AU mod guys).

Removed defensive bombardment from Musketeer.
Since now Musketmen and Musketter have price of 50 shields, just added defense of Musketeer is more then enough to make them a good UU.

Increased Cannons ROF from 1 to 2 and price from 40 to 60 shields (same for Korean UU too).
This is done for flavor purpose (ships with cannons have ROF of 2), and to make Cannon have better "punch" (difference between Terbuchet and Cannons was very minor before).

[player1]

News:
This mod will be realeased in next few days.

[Jarred]

You know, the F-15 isn't as horrible of a unique unit as everyone says: Why?

Let's say you discover it early; America has a small technical advantage throughout the rest of the game; although it is minor, that's the real strength of the F-15, the fact that it never goes obsolete and, unlike say immortals, is always useful.

[sims2789]

Originally posted by player1
...Privateer has bombard strength of 3, but RoF of 0. Sounds like a bug to me. That why they'll get their RoF increased from 0 to 2 in this mod. Still, they have bombard range of 0, so it can only be used for defensive purposes.

Just like how the Archer has a bombard rank of 1 but a range of 0. This is so that if the Archer is on the same square as, say, a Spearman, and the Spearman gets attacked, the Archer will fire a shot at the attacking unit, potentially damaging it. TOW Infantry, as well as other units, do this as well.

[Kloreep]

Originally posted by Jarred
You know, the F-15 isn't as horrible of a unique unit as everyone says: Why?

Let's say you discover it early; America has a small technical advantage throughout the rest of the game; although it is minor, that's the real strength of the F-15, the fact that it never goes obsolete and, unlike say immortals, is always useful.

But the thing is, the F-15 can't be discovered early; it comes very late in the game when, chances are, the stage for a player's victory is already set. It's a victim not so much of its stats, which certainly are better, as its very late timing. The Panzer suffers some from this as well; although it's an awesome unit, it comes so late it's generally better to have an earlier UU like a Knight UU, or at least Siphai.

Originally posted by sims2789
Just like how the Archer has a bombard rank of 1 but a range of 0. This is so that if the Archer is on the same square as, say, a Spearman, and the Spearman gets attacked, the Archer will fire a shot at the attacking unit, potentially damaging it. TOW Infantry, as well as other units, do this as well.

Archer has a bombard strength/rank of 1, range of 0, and Rate of Fire of 1. Privateer has a bombard strength of 3, range of 0, but also RoF of 0, making the strength useless since the RoF is 0. (RoF is the number of times the unit attempts to fire.) Player1 is referring to the Privateer's RoF, not the range.

Though, on the other hand... bombard units only get one defensive shot anyway, regardless of what their RoF on the attack is. So it's possible Privateers get a defensive bombard shot regardless of their RoF, making it a cosmetic bug only.

[Ozymandias]

Speaking of defensive bombardment ...

... Has anyone noticed whether or not increasing the defensive bombardment factor >1 actually has much effect?

-Oz