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Plans for C3C version of Patch Suggestion MOD (also known as Player1 MOD)

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  • Plans for C3C version of Patch Suggestion MOD (also known as Player1 MOD)

    I'm stunned with amount of changes done in Conquest.
    So much that at one point I thought that new version of my mod is not really needed.

    But, since there are still some tweaks that are needed, I'll do new version.
    For start, considering that many things in Conquests were done differently, then old tweaks from PtW version, this new version of MOD will look much more conservative then old one and with less changes overall (at least at start, I won't look for changes to wonders or governments).

    At this point, I still don't have C3C disk, but I'll get it in few days. Until then, I based my plans on looking several unit and tech charts that can be downloaded from these forums.


    Unique Units:

    Javelin Thrower will get defense unit strategy flag removed, since it's too expensive unit to be used for defense (use Spearmen instead).

    Musketeer will get offense unit strategy flag removed, since now it has just attack of 2.

    Keshik will get 2.0.1 bombardment (defensive first strike). It goes with flavor (mounted archer), and original UU was slightly weak.

    Conquistadors will get price reduced from 70 to 60 shields. Considering that Galic Swordsmen got cheaper and with added changes to Keshik, slightly lowered price will balance it out. It also goes with flavor considering that it is a light cavalry, which means that it isn't supposed to be more expensive then heavy cavalry (knights).


    Land Units:

    Lower prices to firearm infantry and better attack similar as done in PtW version of mod.

    Musketmen and Musketeer will get price reduced from 60 to 50 shields.
    Riflemen will get attack increased from 4 to 5 and price reduced from 80 to 70 shields.
    Guerilla will get attack increased from 6 to 7 and price reduced from 90 to 80 shields.
    Infantry will get attack increased from 6 to 8.

    Marines will get defense increased from 6 to 8, considering that there is no reason for such advanced infantry to have as low defense rating as riflemen. They'll also get price reduced from 120 to 110 shields, because while they are better then Infantry, they are not too much better to be worth 30 shields more (+4 attack, -2 defense, plus amphibious ability).

    Paratroopers will get attack increased from 4 to 7. It's smaller attack value compared to infantry in same way as their defense is smaller then compared to infantry (9 vs 10). Airborne units just don't have so much equipment to be as effective as regular Infantry units.

    Modern. Paratroopers will be slightly improved. Exempt attack, which will be increased from 6 to 10, its defense will be increased from 11 to 12. The main reason for this was that they are gained late in the game, and to make them a good alternative to Helicopter dropped TOW Infantry.

    TOW Infantry will get price reduced from 120 to 110 shields. No reason for this Infantry to be as expensive as Modern Armor, but still a lot of reasons to be more expensive then Tanks.

    Defensive first strike ability starts to fade in usefulness in industrial era, since most offensive units start to get good defensive ratings. To compensate, Guerilla will get bombard rating increased from 3 to 4 and TOW Infantry will get bombard rating increased from 6 to 8.

    Modern Armors will get defense reduced from 16 to 14, to make Mech. Infantry more important like in PtW version of mod.

    Mech. Infantry will get offense unit strategy flag removed, to force AI to use Tanks for attack like it's done in PtW version.


    Ships:

    Privateer has bombard strength of 3, but RoF of 0. Sounds like a bug to me, but I could be wrong. Anyway, just to be sure, I'll increase their RoF from 0 to 1 in this mod. Still, they have bombard range of 0, so it can only be used for defensive purposes.

    I've assumed that Cruiser upgrades to AEGIS Cruiser.
    In that case why would they have both same 160 shield cost? That makes 0 cost upgrade.
    That's why I'll reduce cost of Cruisers to 150 shields. They weren't really worth 160 shields anyway, considering that they were (unlike AEGIS Cruiser, which has good AA) just weaker Battleships/slower Destroyers, with no unique abilities at all.

    Considering that bombard rating of bombers and age of sail ships got boosted, it seamed quite strange to leave ships like Battleship with bombard rating of 8.
    That's why Battleships will get bombard strength increased from 8 to 12.
    Cruisers will get bombard strength increased from 7 to 8.
    And AEGIS Cruisers will get bombard strength increased from 6 to 8.

    While modern Carriers are faster then old WWII Battleships, movement cost of 7 is way too much. That makes them fastest ships after Destroyers, which is ridiculous considering that Battleships and Carriers are same sized ships. That's why Carriers will get movement lowered from 7 to 6 (still faster then Battleships).


    Air units:

    Due to low rate of fire, Fighter and Jet Fighter are pretty useless for bombardment. That's why I'll increase their RoF from 1 to 2. Also, since Jet Fighters are probably better bombers then basic Fighter, Jet Fighters will get bombard rating increased from 3 to 4. That will at least make them good against Transport ships.

    Stl. Fighter and F-15 will get bombard rating increased from 6 to 8. Regarding Stl. Fighter, it was done with purpose of making it more balanced compared to Stl. Bomber. With new bombard rating, two Stl. Fighters will do same damage as one Stl. Bomber against unit with defense of 8. In case of higher defense, Stl. Bombers would be a better choice, while in case of lower defense, Stl. Fighters would be more cost effective. As for F-15, it just follows same progression as Stl. Fighter, while also keeping advantage compared to normal Jet Fighter (around 50% better bombardment).


    Flags:

    All Artillery units, Scouts and Explorers will get airlift flag. If Workers can be airlifted these units need too.

    Scouts and Explorers will get foot unit flag, to make them transferable by Helicopters, like it's done with most infantry units.

    Leader and King units will get both airlift and foot unit flag, to make modern regicide game more interesting (and leaders do fly by the planes).
    Last edited by player1; November 17, 2003, 16:27.

  • #2
    Good luck with the new version, player1!
    "As far as general advice on mod-making: Go slow as far as adding new things to the game until you have the basic game all smoothed out ... Make sure the things you change are really imbalances and not just something that doesn't fit with your particular style of play." - WesW

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    • #3
      Now since I just got Conquests today, I'll add this to the list too:

      Javelin Thrower will get defense unit strategy flag removed, since it's too expensive unit to be used for defense (use Spearmen instead).

      Musketeer will get offense unit strategy flag removed, since now it has just attack of 2.

      Privateer has bombard strength of 3, but RoF of 0. Sounds like a bug to me. That why they'll get their RoF increased from 0 to 2 in this mod. Still, they have bombard range of 0, so it can only be used for defensive purposes.
      Last edited by player1; November 14, 2003, 18:51.

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      • #4
        I'd recommend also increasing the range for Aegis bombards.
        Seemingly Benign
        Download Watercolor Terrain - New Conquests Watercolor Terrain

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        • #5
          Well, not really necessary from balance point.

          Range of 2 for ship is a good enough (and has a speed to compensate for that).

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          • #6
            Originally posted by player1
            Privateer has bombard strength of 3, but RoF of 0. Sounds like a bug to me.
            OTOH, alexman has confirmed TWO TIMES that it works - and he should know quite a lot about zero range bombardment.
            "As far as general advice on mod-making: Go slow as far as adding new things to the game until you have the basic game all smoothed out ... Make sure the things you change are really imbalances and not just something that doesn't fit with your particular style of play." - WesW

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            • #7
              The reason I say that is to simulate the Cruise Missiles that a real modern ship would be carrying. In Civ scale they should have a range of 6 or so.
              Seemingly Benign
              Download Watercolor Terrain - New Conquests Watercolor Terrain

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              • #8
                I understand, but woudn't it be a little bit unbalancing.

                I mean, you can defend from planes by using fighters and AA units, but what can you do agiainst Cruisers who bomb 6 tiles away and then can moves 7 tiles further away.

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                • #9
                  And what do people do in the real world to defend from cruise missile attacks launched from 600 miles away? Okay, maybe 4 would be a better range.

                  (BTW, how do you defend from the 16 range 18/3ROF Stealth Bomber attack? ~95% of the time it'll succeed).
                  Seemingly Benign
                  Download Watercolor Terrain - New Conquests Watercolor Terrain

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                  • #10
                    Hmm...

                    Maybe that was the reason why Stl. Bombers are 2.4 times more expensive then normal bombers.

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                    • #11
                      (BTW, how do you defend from the 16 range 18/3ROF Stealth Bomber attack? ~95% of the time it'll succeed).


                      Well, IRL, they've so far had a 100% success rate (AFAIK, none have ever been shot down)

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                      • #12
                        Some more things added to the list.


                        Marines will also get price reduced from 120 to 110 shields, because while they are better then Infantry, they are not too much better to be worth 30 shields more (+4 attack, -2 defense, plus amphibious ability).

                        Modern Paratroopers will be slightly improved. Exempt attack, which will be increased from 6 to 10, its defense will be increased from 11 to 12. The main reason for this was that they are gained late in the game, and to make them a good alternative to Helicopter dropped TOW Infantry.

                        TOW Infantry will get price reduced from 120 to 110 shields. No reason for this Infantry to be as expensive as Modern Armor, but still a lot of reasons to be more expensive then Tanks.

                        Defensive first strike ability starts to fade in usefulness in industrial era, since most offensive units start to get good defensive ratings. To compensate, Guerilla will get bombard rating increased from 3 to 4 and TOW Infantry will get bombard rating increased from 6 to 8.

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                        • #13
                          Jet Fighters will get RoF increased from 1 to 2. They do have rockets after all and they are not supposed to be too much weaker then F-15.
                          The F-15 is already a horrible UU and this only decreases their advantage. The increase on bombardment and increase to RoF does not exactly make them that much better of a unit, especially in terms of them F-15 being a UU. Regardless of the Jet Fighter getting its RoF increased from 1 to 2, the F-15 needs better stats.

                          The Numedian Mercenary should be 2.2.1 not 3.2.1 and cost 20 not 30. The NM stays as too poweful of unit for far too long. The NM gives the Carthaginians too much of an advantage. I think 2.2.1 is good enough let alone making them 3.2.1. The NM at 2.2.1 is equally good at offense as the archer and equally good as the spearman at defense in the middle ages, which still makes them a very potent unit. Also, all the other UUs that come from the spearman don't have the stats 2.2.1, so it's still unique.

                          The Mausoleum of Mausollos is another pointless wonder like Shakespeares Theatre. I would suggest changing it to provides one happy face in all cities and one additional happy face in the city it was built in. Up the cost to 40 instead of 20. Then change it to Religious and Continental Mood Effects Characteristics.

                          Just a couple of the changes I've already made. I never played much PtW, so a lot of the game is new to me, and I'm still refamialirizing myself with all the rest.
                          However, it is difficult to believe that 2 times 2 does not equal 4; does that make it true? On the other hand, is it really so difficult simply to accept everything that one has been brought up on and that has gradually struck deep roots – what is considered truth in the circle of moreover, really comforts and elevates man? Is that more difficult than to strike new paths, fighting the habitual, experiencing the insecurity of independence and the frequent wavering of one’s feelings and even one’s conscience, proceeding often without any consolation, but ever with the eternal goal of the true, the beautiful, and the good? - F.N.

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                          • #14
                            The F-15 is already a horrible UU and this only decreases their advantage.
                            Well, not that much horrible.
                            6.0.2 bombard can be pretty good against transport ships for example.

                            And difference between 3.0.2 vs 6.0.2 is more then 50% by my caluculations against most defenders. And if they didn't triggered GA earlier maybe in modern era would be the right time (to help build SS parts).

                            The Mausoleum of Mausollos is another pointless wonder like Shakespeares Theatre. I would suggest changing it to provides one happy face in all cities and one additional happy face in the city it was built in. Up the cost to 40 instead of 20. Then change it to Religious and Continental Mood Effects Characteristics.
                            Key word: 200 shields cost.
                            It's designed to be weak and cheap wonder.
                            The cost is just slightly more then cost of Cathedral (160 shields).

                            I'm more worried with wonders like Cure of Cancer (1 happy face everywere for 1000 shields), but for first version of the mod I won't change any wonders yet.

                            The Numedian Mercenary should be 2.2.1 not 3.2.1 and cost 20 not 30. The NM stays as too poweful of unit for far too long. The NM gives the Carthaginians too much of an advantage. I think 2.2.1 is good enough let alone making them 3.2.1. The NM at 2.2.1 is equally good at offense as the archer and equally good as the spearman at defense in the middle ages, which still makes them a very potent unit. Also, all the other UUs that come from the spearman don't have the stats 2.2.1, so it's still unique.
                            I don't have problem with this unit.
                            While 1 year before I was thinking in same lines, I realised that this UU is neither overpowred nor underpowered. Key thing to realise is that in order to cash in thier defense of 3, you need to pay 30 shields, which is a lot in ancient era.

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                            • #15
                              Here is the beta version of mod for anybody interested.
                              (it's beta since it's without documentation)

                              For moderators: Do NOT move this thread to Files forum, since mod is still in beta phase.
                              When it gets finished, then I'll make new thread available for donwloads and comments.
                              Attached Files

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