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  • A few random observations

    I bought Conquests today and have read the manual and installed the game. I'm now just about to play a first game to try out some of the new features, but spent some time roaming through the editor and the civilopedia first. Came across a few interesting tidbits about which I haven't seen any comments.

    Disclaimer: as stated above, the following are based upon editor and civilopedia tours, not actual gameplay nor experience as a beta tester.

    1. Pottery is everywhere. I am late to the (fairly widely adopted) view that pottery, and granaries, are immensely powerful. Over the past 4 - 6 months I have routinely started games with max research on pottery so I can build a granary in my capitol city. Six of the seven new civs have pottery as a starting tech. This is mostly due to the introduction of the new agricultural trait (several new civs have it) but also means that everyone whom has grown accustomed to researching pottery early won't be doing so with most of the new civs - freeing up early research for other opportunities.

    2. The "Facism" government is powerful in supressing resistance in newly-conquered cities, but is weak at assimilating foreign citizens. The end result, given Facism's "xenophobic" flag, would seem to help reduce resistance more quickly and to encourage (slightly more than 'normal') starvation thereafter. [Since the xenophobic flag eliminates cultural expansion before majority control of a city by native citizens, a popular defense against culture flipping is to reduce the population and expand cultural borders.]

    3. Shakespeare's Theater now operates as a hospital in addition to the 8 content citizens (widely publicized) but also cannot be built in a city of less than 7 population. Probably limited impact, but I've used the occassional extra leader to rush Shake's with nothing better available, sometimes in a small town (less than 7 pop) with great potential once the war ends and the palace relocation has a chance to take effect. This impact is further limited by the change to the power of military GLs.

    4. Collateral damage. "Collateral damage" is now an editor-accessible unit capability flag, but no unit in the standard game is so enabled. The "collateral damage" civilopedia entry is: "An attack by a unit with the "Collateral Damage" capability can potentially damage improvements in the attacked square during the attack, representing damage to improvements, local structures, or residents due to combat (but not necessarily due to bombardment). " Presumably the "collatral damage" ability is enabled in one of the Conquest scenarios.

    5. Tourist Attraction. The commerce advantage enabled by older wonders is not a simple one- or two-step function -- there is a scale from +2 commerce to +14 commerce that steps up at +2 intervals which means 7 different levels of "tourist commerce," beginning with +2 after 1000 years and maxing out at +14 commerce at 2501 years.

    6. Volcanoes. They may or may not offer warning of eruption (smoldering effects for 2 turns prior). In other words, they can erupt without warning.

    7. Chopping forests. The worker investment to clear forest has changed dramatically (cut in half). It now takes a worker longer to build a mine on grasslands than to chop a forest tile.

    Okay - enough from the manual, civilopedia, and editor, now to start a game with all the new civs and test out both the Ag trait and the enslavement ability of the Mayan Jav thrower . . .

    Catt

  • #2
    Re: A few random observations

    Originally posted by Catt
    1. Pottery is everywhere.
    Here's hoping the AI builds more Granaries because of it...

    3. Shakespeare's Theater now operates as a hospital in addition to the 8 content citizens (widely publicized) but also cannot be built in a city of less than 7 population. Probably limited impact, but I've used the occassional extra leader to rush Shake's with nothing better available, sometimes in a small town (less than 7 pop) with great potential once the war ends and the palace relocation has a chance to take effect. This impact is further limited by the change to the power of military GLs.
    The idea here is to cater to all those "Super City" lovers, which is definitely a better strategy now (building one big city, not catering to those who like to...). I'm still doubtful this is worth the detour to Free Artistry.

    5. Tourist Attraction. The commerce advantage enabled by older wonders is not a simple one- or two-step function -- there is a scale from +2 commerce to +14 commerce that steps up at +2 intervals which means 7 different levels of "tourist commerce," beginning with +2 after 1000 years and maxing out at +14 commerce at 2501 years.
    As pointed out elsewhere, 1000 years is a long time to wait for a few Commerce. Still, it's free, so why complain?

    Does this ability scale well with difficulty level? On the one hand, games last longer at lower difficulties. On the other, Wonders get completed sooner at the higher difficulties.

    6. Volcanoes. They may or may not offer warning of eruption (smoldering effects for 2 turns prior). In other words, they can erupt without warning.
    A Volcano produces 3 Shields without improvement. That's actually pretty strong in the early-game. Just avoid renaming your Volcano-adjacent city to Pompeii and everything should be fine...

    7. Chopping forests. The worker investment to clear forest has changed dramatically (cut in half). It now takes a worker longer to build a mine on grasslands than to chop a forest tile.
    Probably the most "in your face" change to the standard game, along with Curraghs and (of course) the new traits. The new Forest Chop throws off a lot of hard-learned early-game math.

    Okay - enough from the manual, civilopedia, and editor, now to start a game with all the new civs and test out both the Ag trait and the enslavement ability of the Mayan Jav thrower . . .
    Enjoy!


    Dominae
    And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Re: A few random observations

      Originally posted by Dominae

      Here's hoping the AI builds more Granaries because of it...
      If the AI builds more Granaries, it will be because they tweaked the AI in C3C, not because it gets Pottery earlier. In PTW, the AI built Granaries only when a city had a serious food shortage (which is actually when you get the least food leverage from a Granary, but that's a whole other can of worms with the AI's terrible happiness management of large cities...)

      A Volcano produces 3 Shields without improvement. That's actually pretty strong in the early-game.
      Does that take into account the Despotism penalty?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Re: A few random observations

        Originally posted by Dominae

        [. . . re: Shakespeare's Theater] I'm still doubtful this is worth the detour to Free Artistry.
        I don't imagine it would be, but I find the tweak (if it exists in gameplay) to require a city rather thn a town to build the wonder curious.

        As pointed out elsewhere, 1000 years is a long time to wait for a few Commerce. Still, it's free, so why complain?

        Does this ability scale well with difficulty level? On the one hand, games last longer at lower difficulties. On the other, Wonders get completed sooner at the higher difficulties.
        I agree that it appears to be a "freebie." No extra incentive to build any specific wonder, but a welcome little bonus. Do captured wonders provide tourist commerce?

        A Volcano produces 3 Shields without improvement. That's actually pretty strong in the early-game. Just avoid renaming your Volcano-adjacent city to Pompeii and everything should be fine...
        3 shields but no food. I haven't found one yet, but I have been generally hard-pressed to utilize 0-food tiles early in a game. Maybe the Ag trait and helpful terrain makes this more powerful.

        Catt

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: A few random observations

          Originally posted by Catt

          3. Shakespeare's Theater now operates as a hospital in addition to the 8 content citizens (widely publicized) but also cannot be built in a city of less than 7 population. Probably limited impact, but I've used the occassional extra leader to rush Shake's with nothing better available, sometimes in a small town (less than 7 pop) with great potential once the war ends and the palace relocation has a chance to take effect. This impact is further limited by the change to the power of military GLs.
          The city limitation isn't much of a limit. By the late Middle Ages I've got more than enough workers to pump up a town to size 7 in one turn. Practically speaking this may take several turns in order to get all of the workers to your chosen site, but if you've got a Scientific GL hanging about and you really need Shakespeare's in that size 1 border town, you can do it.

          Libraries are state sanctioned, so they're technically engaged in privateering. - Felch
          I thought we're trying to have a serious discussion? It says serious in the thread title!- Al. B. Sure

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          • #6
            Re: Re: Re: A few random observations

            Originally posted by alexman
            If the AI builds more Granaries, it will be because they tweaked the AI in C3C, not because it gets Pottery earlier.
            Yeah, I was just sort of kidding with my comment. More Pottery just means better starts for human players.

            Does that take into account the Despotism penalty?
            As far as I recall, yes (I still do not own the retail copy).


            Dominae
            And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...

            Comment


            • #7
              A population minimum for some buildings?

              Does this now mean there is a population minumum prerrequisite for buildings in the editor? If this is the case, then that Colonization emulation mod gets one step closer to reality...
              Avoid COLONY RUSH on Galactic Civlizations II (both DL & DA) with my Slow Start Mod.
              Finding Civ 4: Colonization too easy? Try my Ten Colonies challenge.

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              • #8
                Ah, Catt, Alexman and the crew is back. Will any of you be starting an AI observations thread over at the Strategy forum just as you guys did with PTW?
                AI:C3C Debug Game Report (Part1) :C3C Debug Game Report (Part2)
                Strategy:The Machiavellian Doctrine
                Visit my WebsiteMonkey Dew

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                • #9
                  I'm afraid so....
                  Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing?
                  Then why call him God? - Epicurus

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Re: A few random observations

                    Originally posted by Dominae
                    A Volcano produces 3 Shields without improvement. That's actually pretty strong in the early-game. Just avoid renaming your Volcano-adjacent city to Pompeii and everything should be fine...
                    I renamed mine "Herculaneum".
                    "Stuie has the right idea" - Japher
                    "I trust Stuie and all involved." - SlowwHand
                    "Stuie is right...." - Guynemer

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: A few random observations

                      [QUOTE] Originally posted by Catt [QUOTE]

                      The end result, given Facism's "xenophobic" flag, would seem to help reduce resistance more quickly and to encourage (slightly more than 'normal') starvation thereafter.
                      Guess this means we'll be using our fascists purely for self-defense.

                      3. Shakespeare's Theater now operates as a hospital in addition to the 8 content citizens (widely publicized) but also cannot be built in a city of less than 7 population.
                      This is more important than at first it sounds - if you can set a minimum pop to build Shakespeare's theatre then you should be able to do likewise for other wonders ( even if the option isn't in the editor, it is coded in so a patch could easily fix that ). This means if you feel that certain wonders should only be reserved for important cities rather than places the AI simply wasn't doing anything with for thirty turns or so you can limit the tendancy for tiny no-name cities building wonders by setting a fairly high minimum pop to build. I'd imagine.

                      5. Tourist Attraction. The commerce advantage enabled by older wonders is not a simple one- or two-step function -- there is a scale from +2 commerce to +14 commerce that steps up at +2 intervals which means 7 different levels of "tourist commerce," beginning with +2 after 1000 years and maxing out at +14 commerce at 2501 years.
                      That's not particularly useful but I assume it can always be edited. Damn designers and their wish to preserve game balance .

                      6. Volcanoes. They may or may not offer warning of eruption (smoldering effects for 2 turns prior). In other words, they can erupt without warning.
                      I assume you can place them using the editor, yes?

                      7. Chopping forests. The worker investment to clear forest has changed dramatically (cut in half). It now takes a worker longer to build a mine on grasslands than to chop a forest tile.
                      Thank. God.
                      A witty quote proves nothing. - Voltaire

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: A few random observations

                        Originally posted by Catt
                        I bought Conquests today and have read the manual and installed the game. I'm now just about to play a first game to try out some of the new features
                        Lucky sod.


                        4. Collateral damage. "Collateral damage" is now an editor-accessible unit capability flag, but no unit in the standard game is so enabled. The "collateral damage" civilopedia entry is: "An attack by a unit with the "Collateral Damage" capability can potentially damage improvements in the attacked square during the attack, representing damage to improvements, local structures, or residents due to combat (but not necessarily due to bombardment). " Presumably the "collatral damage" ability is enabled in one of the Conquest scenarios.
                        I wonder if this will include other units in the same square or not?

                        5. Tourist Attraction. The commerce advantage enabled by older wonders is not a simple one- or two-step function -- there is a scale from +2 commerce to +14 commerce that steps up at +2 intervals which means 7 different levels of "tourist commerce," beginning with +2 after 1000 years and maxing out at +14 commerce at 2501 years.
                        Nothing spectacular, but the earlier you build the wonder the better. It is a shame that this isn't more turn-based though, as in RL Wonders that still exist and have done so for considerably less than 1000 years are fantastic tourist attractions (Statue of Liberty, Sistine Chapel). Perhaps this can be changed in the editor, but I doubt it.

                        6. Volcanoes. They may or may not offer warning of eruption (smoldering effects for 2 turns prior). In other words, they can erupt without warning.
                        So you just have to keep watch on the map? I hope you get a pop-up when one starts smoking, else you could be surprised by a sudden eruption without warning...

                        7. Chopping forests. The worker investment to clear forest has changed dramatically (cut in half). It now takes a worker longer to build a mine on grasslands than to chop a forest tile.
                        So although the chop gives you an even quicker boost to builds, it is a harder choice because getting good shield terrain back with mining grass takes longer... interesting. I wonder if mining plains takes longer too? I sometimes clear forest and mine the resultant plains if I am hard up for shields.
                        Consul.

                        Back to the ROOTS of addiction. My first missed poll!

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                        • #13
                          So 5 turns for a standard worker to chop a forest (down from 10) and therefore... 4 turns for an industrious worker?

                          4-5 turns of worker action for 10 shields (assuming they haven't changed that bonus) is a damn good deal.

                          Volcanoes scare me. The thought of having a core city wiped out by one...

                          "Pottery is everywhere" is fine by me, I usually researched that at 100% right away if I wasn't Expansionist. Hey, have the starting techs for the civs been shuffled at all? For instance, I got the impression that Seafaring civs will start with the Alphabet (correct me if I'm wrong). If that's the case, have commercial civs been switched to something else, or do they still start with Alphabet?

                          -Arrian
                          grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                          The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

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                          • #14
                            Don't you have the game yet then, Arrian? (are you waiting for the postman to arrive with it, or waiting to read reviews from posters here before buying? )
                            If I'm posting here then Counterglow must be down.

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                            • #15
                              I'm also frightened by Volcanoes, but they sound like fun too. The change to chopping speed will certainly make all those micro-management rules I never learnt obsolete.
                              If I'm posting here then Counterglow must be down.

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