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C3C: Incas UU -- Possible problem

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  • C3C: Incas UU -- Possible problem

    Today I first time looked through Conquest Info on civ3.com (I know it is kind of late) and I realized that Incas UU is quite worthless.

    Incas have Chasqui Scout: 1/1/2 which is armed version of the scout and moves across hill/mountains at cost 1. Looks great so far, but...
    a. Inca starts with regular scout;
    b. it costs 20!
    c. it does not upgrade to anything millitary worhtwhile, explorers? (unless they changed normal upgrade path).

    (a), (b), and (c) makes this Chasqui Scout worthless for the purpose it was designed!

    If Incas can build normal scouts then it is a better option because putting out 2,3,4 or more additional scouts (depends on map settings) is paramount, so 20 shields cost does not cut in). Thus, these Chasquies will not be built for scouting -- too expensive.

    On the other hand, if Incas can build only Chasqui then they are in serious disadvantage compare to other expansionists: they cannot field as many scouts ASAP and will be lagging behind with goody hut popping.

    Another draw back of Chasqui is accidental GA if somebody (excluding barbarians) attacked it and lost.

    As it now the only use of it is to build one around middle age to trigger GA on some redlined Archer or Longbowman.

    My suggestions:
    1. Incas have to start with Chasqui (not regular scout).
    2. Chasqui should cost 10.

    Cost 10 is not the great advantage: the do not upgrades to swordsmen like Aztecs Warriors, so rushing somebody with them or building them for military purpose is somewaht pointless.

    As goodie huts are explored, Chasqui could hunt barbarians and their camps, so here they should cost 10 because attacking something with unit 1/1/2 at price 20 is rather stupid. Warriors and archers could do that better and elites could be used for GL later without fear of unwanted GA.

    A more radical approach is to give them +1 to movement: 0/0/3 at normal cost and no terrain discounts (it might be too good if combined).

    The bottom line: Scouts should never costs more that 10, othrewise they are not worth they price.

  • #2
    I agree. Somehow i get the impression somthing is left out of the preview. They can't suck THAT bad :/

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    • #3
      Think of it this way:
      Chasqui scout are chariots available right from the beginning, who do not require horses, and who explore quickly on mountains and hills.
      If you play on a mountaineous map, chasqui scouts can be great, because they'd go twice faster than any other unit on the high grounds = those from where you can see two tiles around.
      They'll also remain good as pillagers until the explorers come. Gotta love pillaging that lone Iron resource at the border, just the turn at which you declared the war
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      • #4
        You can pillage with normal scouts anyway (in PTW at least) and 1 defence would not save you: enemy using its roads for 3x movement.

        Chariots? Seriously, have you tried to fight with them? I do not mean War Chariots (Egyptian UU). Chariots are good as pre-builds only.

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        • #5
          Jaguar Warriors have the same stats, and cost half the money. The Incan UU sucks indeed.
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          • #6
            Yeah. I agree. It's bad that you can't upgrade it.
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            • #7
              Chariots also upgrade, making them much more valuable.

              I think the Incan scouth should simply replace their regular scout, cost ten, and upgrade to explorer. It would basically be a jaguar warrior instead of a scout.

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              • #8
                Re: C3C: Incas UU -- Possible problem

                Originally posted by pvzh
                My suggestions:
                1. Incas have to start with Chasqui (not regular scout).
                2. Chasqui should cost 10.
                Let's use a scenario to show why this is a bad idea.

                Instead of the Chasqui we'll use the Jag Warrior in this example.

                Let's say you are playing a mod that let's you start with one Jag Warrior. Okay, say you are playing in an MP game with your buddy. Say he starts about 10 tiles away. Say you discover him with your starting Jag within 5 turns. Can you say game over for your buddy? He likely won't have any defender at this point but if he does it's about a 35% chance of taking his warrior out.

                Now imagine it's not your buddy, but rather the AI and you. How would you feel when the AI Jag Warrior comes to your capital before you can build a single defender?

                How is this scenario different from a standard Jag rush? Simple, the Aztecs don't start with a Jag and instead need to wait a few turns.
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                • #9
                  Interesting point WS!
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                  • #10
                    I think that the risk of such a quick defeat occuring every single time that I play as a civ from the Americas, start withing 10 tiles of the Incas and the Incans make a direct beeline to my undefeated city is worth not having another useless UU.

                    Let's face it... the above scenario isn't going to trouble the AIs that start with a handful of defenders, and is going to so rarely be a problem to the human player that giving the Incas a lame UU just isn't worth it.

                    A 20 cost scout does negate the purpose of having scouts, which are best used in groups of 4 or 5 as early as possible.

                    I'd rather have the Incans with a decent UU. I'm willing to live in fear that 1 in evrery 1000 games will be over in ten turns.

                    -Fosse

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                    • #11
                      BTW, the Chasqui Scout enslaves in the mesoamerican scenario (if I had it right). There is no mention of enslavement in the general game's pedia entry, but it may be an omission, I don't know.
                      "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
                      "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Fosse
                        Let's face it... the above scenario isn't going to trouble the AIs that start with a handful of defenders, and is going to so rarely be a problem to the human player that giving the Incas a lame UU just isn't worth it.

                        .
                        .
                        .

                        I'd rather have the Incans with a decent UU. I'm willing to live in fear that 1 in evrery 1000 games will be over in ten turns.
                        It is obvious that you don't play MP games.
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                        • #13
                          I agree that on the face of it the Chasqui Scout sounds a bit rubbish. However, I still remember this time last year when many of us were fearful that the Gallic Swordsman would be so over-powered as to ruin the standard game. I'm reserving judgement until I play with the units for myself.
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by FrustratedPoet
                            I agree that on the face of it the Chasqui Scout sounds a bit rubbish. However, I still remember this time last year when many of us were fearful that the Gallic Swordsman would be so over-powered as to ruin the standard game. I'm reserving judgement until I play with the units for myself.
                            It was overpriced just like the scout

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by WarpStorm


                              It is obvious that you don't play MP games.
                              My friends and I play Hotseat and LAN games all of the time., thanks.

                              Again, the odds of one of us beelining directly to an opponant's city from turn 1 are incredibly low. That's why I said it's really not a problem for humans.


                              I'd rather take that small risk and have a good UU when I play the Incas.

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