Gamespot's C3C civilization profiles

[History Guy]

Well, if the Israelites don't deserve to get in the game, I wonder why the Arabs ever made it. Sure, they had an empire, but their religion is just something they slapped together from Israelite teachings.

GF, your arguments make no sense. In fact, that Reagan quote was really rather silly.

As for one contribution civs, what about the Hittites or the Inca (to use the latest two spotlighted civs)? The Hittites hardly contributed to civilization at all. They were a military presence that was really big for a few centuries, and then collapsed utterly. They left behind very little at all to account for any brief greatness.

The Inca formed a very well run empire. However, once that was gone, what traces did they leave behind?

Nothing to compare with Israel.

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by History Guy
GF, your arguments make no sense. In fact, that Reagan quote was really rather silly.

Yes they are, to emphasize the silly arguments that Israel is a major civ. The Incas shaped a large area of South America for quite some time. Israel was a mere speed bump in the lineages of their neighbors.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
If Civilization was a religion only game then Israel would be at the top of the list, but it isn't. It is a game of Major Civilzations butting heads with one another. Israel does NOT qualify.

If head-butting gets you into the club, there's a few civs we can remove, and a few we can add. For example, the Celts can go. The "Babylonians" can go - after all, Babylon was just a city, a city owned by many different empires at many different times. The Koreans can basically go. The Iroquois? Gone. The Greeks can go and be replaced by the Athenians, the Spartans, etc... but I digress.

Even in a "Godless" concept of history, the Israelis played a major role. At LEAST as major as the Celts, Vikings, Iroquois or Zulu for that matter. Almost as major as Carthage.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

This is turning into a very nasty little thread. I'm going to do my part and refrain from commenting further on the worthiness of any given civ... but I want to throw one last plea for sanity out there. That the Israelis invented the God that Jews, Christians, and Muslims ALL worship IS a big deal. A huge deal.

I encourage anyone looking for an excellently written, easy to ready and objective history of religion (that mentions Hittites as well as Jews) to pick up Karen Armstrong's "A History of God". Whether or not you agree that YHWH exists - I don't - it's pretty undeniable that if civilizations that contributed to global culture are to be included in this game, the Israelis must be, as their contribution far outweighed their numbers and lives with us today thousands of years later.

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
If head-butting gets you into the club, there's a few civs we can remove, and a few we can add. For example, the Celts can go. The "Babylonians" can go - after all, Babylon was just a city, a city owned by many different empires at many different times. The Koreans can basically go. The Iroquois? Gone. The Greeks can go and be replaced by the Athenians, the Spartans, etc... but I digress.

That's completely wrong, all of the above mentioned were civilizations in many ways, they impacted other civs in many ways. But the fact is they were all DOMINANT civilizations at some point.

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
Even in a "Godless" concept of history, the Israelis played a major role. At LEAST as major as the Celts, Vikings, Iroquois or Zulu for that matter. Almost as major as Carthage.

They only played a major role in religion. No where near the level of the Celts, Vikings, Iroquois, or Carthage.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
That's completely wrong, all of the above mentioned were civilizations in many ways, they impacted other civs in many ways. But the fact is they were all DOMINANT civilizations at some point.
They only played a major role in religion. No where near the level of the Celts, Vikings, Iroquois, or Carthage.

...the Celts, DOMINANT?

...nowhere near the level of the Iroquois?

You need to read some Roman history... look up Herod and Herod Agrippa... CERTAINLY as important as the Iroquois, all religious issues aside...

[sabrewolf]

oh no... the 425th thread that changed topic to "israel should be in"

this is a topic that cannot come to a solution, because the question isn't even defined: what makes a worthy civilization?

GF uses conquest as a reason. in that case israel would be somewhere around position 852 (i'm not counting modern day conquest), so they don't deserve to be in

YS seen religion as a reason. in that case, the jews (and therefor israel) belong in. although (provocatively): only because edison invented the light bulb, doesn't mean america rules the artificial light.

other possible argumentations for a civ:

- land area (==> the hebrew never had a big country)
political influence
- scientific/cultural achievements (as eg. greece)
- great city-states (babylon, troy and very few other)
- great achievement in disadvantageous regions (inuit, etc.)
- long and permanent history
- commercial power
- regional distribution
and a lot more....


to decide if to have israel in or not, we have to first know, what qualifies a civilization to be worthy of a 1 out of 31 spot. before the question isn't know, my answer is fourty-two

[GhengisFarb™]

Just for clarification I have a hard time buying America as qualifying to get into Civ..........

[vmxa1]

They are qualified because of two things:

An American created it.

They want to sell as many games as they can. Can you image the fuss if it was not in?

I mean I don't care who is in or out, it is a game and I only care about if it is fun.

[WarpStorm]

Ghengis, in a couple of thousand years this will all be ancient history anyways, so the Americans may qualify just as well as the rest of the quaint old civs.

[Panag]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Just a nitpick: the Portuguese arrived first, and they established trading posts years before you. But trade wasn't their main bbusiness in Japan, as the spread of Christianty was.
Edit: but after the victory of the Tokugawas in 1611, the Christians were booted out of Japan. Only Dutch merchants were tolerated in Japan (I think they were the only foreigners tolerated at all in Japan before 1850).

hi ,

some americans where allowed , but only to stay with the ship in harbor , they where not even allowed to dock , the same for many other nations before 1750 , ......

have a nice day

[Spiffor]

Thanks for the correction, Panag. I didn't know that

And as per the other Civilization profiles: Am I the only one who thinks the Portuguese and the Inca will rule ?

- Thanks to their UU and their traits, the Portuguese will be the gods of seaborne exploration. Better yet, they'll have the functional equivalent of a frigate tens of turns before magnetism gets invented (and cheaper too!). On Continent maps or Archipelagos, the Portuguese will absolutely rule

- The incas can build their UU right from the beginning, and it is the fastest unit until the explorer arrives (2 moves, ignores move costs of mountains and hills). Better yet, the Incas have a uber-pillager right at the beginning of the game, as it can defend itself. But what strikes me as especially stong with the Incas is the agricultural expansionist combo: not only they'll discover the world very quickly, they'll also be able to settle on it more quickly than the others. This means the Incas will have very soon a functioning and populated empire, whose cities will be well located Talk about a heads up right from the beginning !

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

It will be very interesting indeed to see how the Chasqui and Jaguar interact...

[sabrewolf]

let's say that the incas will have a lot more slave workers after some fights

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by sabrewolf
oh no... the 425th thread that changed topic to "israel should be in"

I am sorry for my contribution to this. Trust me. I really am. I should be punished. Still, whether or not Israel should be in, people who diminish its importance make me see red. I'm not Jewish; I'm not a big fan of Israel; nor do I think Israel should be driven into the sea. But I am a student of history - that's why I love Civ. And for people to overlook the historic signifigance of Israel drives me utterly batty.

- scientific/cultural achievements (as eg. greece)
- great city-states (babylon, troy and very few other)
- great achievement in disadvantageous regions (inuit, etc.)
- long and permanent history

Um, you can check all of these "yes" for Israel in its classic incarnation. Font of Judiasm/Christianity/Islam, great cities of strategic and historic note, significant achievement in, let's face it, a rather dry area, and though not PERMANENT, a very LONG history... Israel's been there in one form or another for thousands of years, and before y'all cry foul, bear in mind that Germany in civ represents the ancient Germans as well, even though Germany proper didn't exist until 1871...

THAT'S ALRIGHT though. Those of us wishing to include the Israelis can just mod the Hittites or Byzantines out. Maybe the Sumerians. Same general neck of the woods. Hey, if the Dutch have a Swiss UU, why can't the Israelis have a Hittite UU?