soemthing they should really add in diplomacy...

[Mellian]

...or do it like in Alpha Centauri. should be able to trade, give off or loan units to other civilizations. So would love have this feature in diplomacy, so i can armed smalish ally civs, and so on, or 'loan' the units to them where you give them some control over some units, like in hearts of iron.

-Mellian

[Gramphos]

Soren said the problem with this were that the AI couldn't handle it correctly IIRC so, it were never included...

[Mellian]

they succeed in doing it with Alpha Centauri in a way, and they in Civ3? :wtf:

-Mellian

[Traelin]

I agree, and many people have posted similar comments. From what I've heard from Firaxis, they say the human could somehow exploit unit trading with the AI. If that's the case, then I don't see why they can't just allow a one-sided unit trading option, where the human can give units to the AI but not vice versa. Seems very simple to me. I mean why would the AI utilize units you gave them any differently than if they created them on their own???

[Gunter]

I suspect that the issue is that the AI can't handle criterias of units managment,I mean it could be possible to give to an allied faction let's say 10 units but on the contrary I suppose the AI can't do the same,not for technical reasons but because the wouldn't know how many units and which ones,therefore in few words the AI is Artificial but not Intelligent.

In this way lot of spoils will come and therefore they do not put such feature.

Gunter

[Traelin]

Originally posted by Gunter
I suspect that the issue is that the AI can't handle criterias of units managment,I mean it could be possible to give to an allied faction let's say 10 units but on the contrary I suppose the AI can't do the same,not for technical reasons but because the wouldn't know how many units and which ones,therefore in few words the AI is Artificial but not Intelligent.

In this way lot of spoils will come and therefore they do not put such feature.

Gunter

I understand what you're saying about unit trading, but my idea was to let one-sided trading occur (which I guess isn't really "trading" per se). I just want to be able to give a smaller ally a ton of units so I don't always have to declare war/switch govts./break pacts/whatever. To me that would be the single-best feature that could be added to the game. Then I could pull a typical superpower move and arm someone to the teeth.

[Gunter]

If you want to give to allied units,why do they can't do the same ?

It would be an advantage for you ,a feature that AI can't have,even if the AI cheats a lot to equalize human intelligence.

It would be necessary a kind of Deep Blue

If you are referring to Multiplayer...this is another matter.

Gunter

[Gramphos]

Originally posted by Traelin
I agree, and many people have posted similar comments. From what I've heard from Firaxis, they say the human could somehow exploit unit trading with the AI. If that's the case, then I don't see why they can't just allow a one-sided unit trading option, where the human can give units to the AI but not vice versa. Seems very simple to me. I mean why would the AI utilize units you gave them any differently than if they created them on their own???

The problem as I got it was the possible exploit of giving (no way you can deny a gift ) old obstelss units to the AI, which the aI would (try to) upgrade for a high cost, and would have to pay support for.

If unit trading should be in I think it should be more in the way of renting/lending units over a period of time.
The units should be transported to a city on the same continent (or a city with airport/ harbor on another continent using the trade network) when the deal is signed. They should be made unavailable to the seller immeadiately, but not be available for the renter until the next turn (if on the same continent or airport transport, or two turns by sea transport)
Durng the deal half the unit support should be payed/supplied by each part. (immediate needs (as food and ammunition) supported by the renter, and long term needs (as wages, uniforms, equipment) by the seller) In case that the renter doesn't have the prerequire for the units 2/3 support will be payed by the seller (the renter can only supply food)

It should be possible to negotiate the units to only be usable against specific civs.

Your units fighting for another civ will generate some war werriness for you. And the civ they are fighting against will lose attitude towards you.

Finaly. The deal will last for at least twenty turns. Once canceled your units will return to your cities, using the same time as it took for them to leave.


I think this has potential to work if implemented correctly (as the give away unit - give away costs exploit won't exist).

[Traelin]

Originally posted by Gramphos

The problem as I got it was the possible exploit of giving (no way you can deny a gift ) old obstelss units to the AI, which the aI would (try to) upgrade for a high cost, and would have to pay support for.

My idea for avoiding the exploit would be as such: don't allow trading of obsolete units. I mean if you think about it, would modern-day Israel really be interested in purchasing cannons from the U.S.? Then both the AI and the human could perform unit trading. I would also add in code to prevent the AI from trading units to a human if it would make them weaker than the human. In dealings with the AI, I would probably add in code that would allow them to do AI-AI unit trading only if it will not weaken them beyond the average of the top 3 Civs, or something like that.

EDIT: I just don't think the mercenaries idea would be realistic or "interesting" in terms of gameplay. For instance, we don't actually hire our soldiers out to Israel to wage war, but we sell them Apaches and the like.

[Gramphos]

Originally posted by Traelin


My idea for avoiding the exploit would be as such: don't allow trading of obsolete units. I mean if you think about it, would modern-day Israel really be interested in purchasing cannons from the U.S.? Then both the AI and the human could perform unit trading. I would also add in code to prevent the AI from trading units to a human if it would make them weaker than the human. In dealings with the AI, I would probably add in code that would allow them to do AI-AI unit trading only if it will not weaken them beyond the average of the top 3 Civs, or something like that.

It's not abouyt purchasing obstless units, but about giving them away for nothing. That would give the AI loads of trouble. At least that was what Soren said...

EDIT: I just don't think the mercenaries idea would be realistic or "interesting" in terms of gameplay. For instance, we don't actually hire our soldiers out to Israel to wage war, but we sell them Apaches and the like.

Ever heard of the Finnish Winter war?
Swedish soldiers were helping the Finns out, but Sweden was not involved in that war...
Edit: Fixed the quote

[Dida]

well, they would have done it just for the multiplayer game.
But hey, they really should do it for single player too. It's not that difficult.

[Traelin]

Originally posted by Gramphos

It's not abouyt purchasing obstless units, but about giving them away for nothing. That would give the AI loads of trouble. At least that was what Soren said...

The same rule would go into effect. Don't allow the trading or purchasing of obsolete units. It makes no sense anyways.

Originally posted by Gramphos

EDIT: I just don't think the mercenaries idea would be realistic or "interesting" in terms of gameplay. For instance, we don't actually hire our soldiers out to Israel to wage war, but we sell them Apaches and the like.

Ever heard of the Finnish Winter war?
Swedish soldiers were helping the Finns out, but Sweden was not involved in that war...
Edit: Fixed the quote

One can always find a rare exception to the rule (like the one you mentioned), but in 99.9% of the cases you will not find a country's organized army acting as mercs. It just doesn't happen (or shall I say, it very, very rarely happens).

[Tiberius]

I honestly don't get this "it would be an exploit" thing.

So what ?!? There are other things human can do to exploit the AI. (In the end, anything you do in civ3 that involves thinking is an exploit, because the AI can't think.) Those who have fun doing this (exploiting the AI) should be allowed to do it, since this is why they pay for the game, to have fun! Others, who take this exploit stuff seriously and consider it some sort of cheating, wouldn't use it anyway. So what's the problem?

Besides, there are a lot of things that could be done to prevent as much as possible an overuse of such an option: don't allow the gifting of obsolate units, or make the gifted units maintenance-free, etc.

I know it would add a lot of fun to the gameplay, and so many fans long for it. Civ2 had it, SMAC had it, only in civ3 is it impossible ?

[Elias]

I think you should be able to sell your units to the AI. Russia is
selling off all their cold war stuff why shouldent your civ be
able to do it ?

[Traelin]

Originally posted by Tiberius
I honestly don't get this "it would be an exploit" thing.

So what ?!? There are other things human can do to exploit the AI. (In the end, anything you do in civ3 that involves thinking is an exploit, because the AI can't think.) Those who have fun doing this (exploiting the AI) should be allowed to do it, since this is why they pay for the game, to have fun! Others, who take this exploit stuff seriously and consider it some sort of cheating, wouldn't use it anyway. So what's the problem?

Besides, there are a lot of things that could be done to prevent as much as possible an overuse of such an option: don't allow the gifting of obsolate units, or make the gifted units maintenance-free, etc.

I know it would add a lot of fun to the gameplay, and so many fans long for it. Civ2 had it, SMAC had it, only in civ3 is it impossible ?

Tiberius,

Yeah that's what I was thinking from the very beginning. There are probably a host of other exploits that the human could use, but who really cares if they paid for the game anyways?

But you actually raise an interesting point that I didn't think of: maintenance-free units that are gifts. I haven't given it deep thought, but that's certainly an issue to be brainstormed.

I can't stress enough how badly I want to give units to inferior AIs.