Emperor Games: how to improve your skills

[Mountain Sage]

In 590 BC the situation was the following:
Everything was geared to the soon-to-launch invasion.
7 cities and 1 colony (not hooked yet!)
Reseraching Mathematics (24 turnsto go at 10%).
32 warriors and 4 archers, 3 workers.
The library in Thermopylae is a 'mistake'. It was corrected.

Tips for newbees:
1. I would not launch an invasion on Emperor with less than 30 units, especially of you plan to take out another civ.
2. Bejing just finished the GLibrary the turn before. This is why I waited that long before launching an invasion. There is no point capturing a city 3 turns away from a Wonder. How did I know it? Go to the diplomatic screen and investigate the city (it cost me 70 gold, well spent).
3. Do not take out the Chinese last city. Sue for peace and grab all the techs and gold (if left). Their last city will fall with the first of the Arab's.
4. Look at the tight spacing of the Greek's cities and compare with the other civs' spacing. This is done on purpose (C-T-T-C). You can pack 2 more cities with it, meaning more gold, military units etc. Since the capitol is so far south, it will probably be moved, so you don't care if this bunch of cities will not grow over 12.

Time to update the warriors to swordmen and go...

[ToeTruck]

Good thread Mountain Sage and thanks for setting this up.

This type of comparison is very helpful (for me at least). Our styles are similar, but also noticeably different.

For example: I started the Chinese war with far fewer than 30 units. My first stack was about six (3 Hoplites and 3 Archers). That's way to few to conquer anyone, but it was plenty to totally hamstring Beijing and pillage Mao's trade network. When my real force got going, Mao had no roads to leverage and his production was far less than it would have been if I had waited.

Another example: You are following the 3-spacing strategy more diligently than I did. I understand the value of 3-spacing, but I like to jump ahead and ensure my "2nd tier" cities are in place. In this case, I wanted to grab the Incense as quickly as possible and develop my front line cities before the area was littered with Chinese. Until I read your post, I had forgotten that I even had a city site available back from the line. I'd be interested in the founding order of your cities.

Also, I like to make peace partway through my assault and take a breather. In this game, China still had three cities when I sued for peace. I got a bunch of techs and a city(!) as a part of the Treaty. This allowed me to regroup my forces in Beijing and prepare for both the elimination of the Chinese and the subsequent attack on Arabia. Plus getting the techs earlier sometimes allows you to start researching one level deeper in the tree than you could if you waited.

The main difference between the way were playing this game, however, is in the way we are using Warriors. You built a ton of them with the intention of upgrading to Swordsmen. I think I only built 5 or 6 Warriors before switching to Archers and Hoplites.

Very interesting...

Good luck with the war.

- TT

[ToeTruck]

Greece DAR - 170BC - Death of the Chinese

Well, I've eliminated the Chinese and am preparing to conquer the Arabs.

First, a sad note. The Iroquois have beaten the Arabs to the Great Library. As a builder at heart, I covet the GL so it's a bit of a disappointment.

Here's a summary of the current position:
- 13 cities.
- 1 Settler, 7 Workers, 3 Warriors, 6 Archers, 11 Swords, and 16 Hoplites.
- Currency in 4. Also need Construction and Polytheism.

And, here is the current minimap:


Not much to notice except that the Arabs have a mere five cities for me to tackle. Should be a piece of cake.

And here's a zoom map:


A couple of things worth noticing here:

- I've only razed two Chinese cities! That is very rare; most people (including me) raze every city they conquer. In this case, razing just didn't make sense; I had wounded units that needed to heal anyhow and China's demise was so close I didn't have to worry about resistance. Plus, their city spacing wasn't that bad. Yeah, Shanghai could move to the coast, but big deal.

- I've started building the Forbidden Palance in Corinth. I usually build the FP near the capital and then jump (or re-build) the Palace where I really want it.

That's it for now. I haven't done anything that unusual, but if anyone has a question about what I'm thinking, I'd be glad to answer.

Later.

- TT

[Mountain Sage]

ToeTruck,
This is exactly why I posted this thread: to give people the possibility to compare different strategies and tactics and you are most helpful.

I am posting my comments after yours just because I already finished both games (won both by a space race) and I didn't want to put any spoilers.

My situation in 310BC:
15 warriors (to be upgraded against the Arabs) , 12 archers, 11 swordmen.
176 gold, mathematics in 6 turns (60%).
3 Chinese towns down, I will push on and leave only Tsingtao.
I have lots of units, I know, but I want to take the Arabs out asap as well. Then my units will play garrison duty in my cities (2 per city under Despotism). After Republic, we'll see.
I will give you my building order tomorrow.
I didn't raze any cities here since, if I rememeber correctly, I planned to move my capitol (and the FP) to a more central place. I will check this.
Oh, you will see that I disconnected the Chinese iron (and lost my 2 units).

[Arrian]

ToeTruck,

I'm not sure that most people raze every city they capture. I sure don't, not in the ancient age, anyway!

Unless the city is terribly placed or has a high chance of flipping, I will keep it. Often, I'll use poprushing to kill off the "enemy" population and get myself a unit or a temple (or barracks, or something...). Otherwise, I'll starve it, or even rush workers until it's size 1.

Why would you spend the 30 shields + 2 pop points necessary to replace every single city you take??

Hell, even in my current Emp level game, in the industrial era, I've kept 4 cities out of the 9 I've taken (2 had functioning wonders, the others had courthouse + policestation + factory intact).

-Arrian

[ToeTruck]

Hi Arrian,

I would be very interested whether most people raze or not. I based my comments some of the threads I've read particularly those on city-spacing, culture flipping, and resistance. Perhaps I mis-interpreted the general population's attitude towards razing. I suspect that most people are cut and dry one way or the other; they either always raze or never raze, or they have some rule like: "raze except the last one" or the like. I further suspect that the best players consider each case on its own merits.

For me, I tend to raze a lot, perhaps more than the norm, but perhaps less. If I'm trying to wipe a civ out completely, I usually don't have the luxury of garrisoning every city I conquer.

On the other hand, I definitely see the value of taking and keeping conquered cities. It's like a Settler from a goody-hut; you wouldn't turn one down, would you?

In this game, I was just struck that I only razed two of the seven Chinese cities I conquered.

Your comments are forcing me reconsider that entire aspect of the game. Thanks.

- TT

[Arrian]

TT,

My general rule is that I don't raze in the ancient era ('cept for horrible city location by the AI), mostly don't raze in the middle ages, but mostly raze after that unless I expect to be able to wipe out the opponent rather quickly.

Early in the game, the 30 shields & 2 pop points required to rebuild a city are huge, and I'd rather not use them up rebuilding AI cities. Plus, the AI doesn't have that much culture built up early on, or high population in most of its cities, such that a poprush or two will knock the city down to size 1, and all new growth will be of my nationality.

I almost never experience flips. I play mostly on Monarch, and I know that the AI builds up a lot more culture on Emp, so flips are more of a concern. I should also mention that, despite fighting a lot, I'm big on culture, and so I usually have a lot of it. On Monarch, this means I'm often double or more the nearest AI. On Emperor, this means I'm one of the leaders (in the current game I talked about before, I've just moved into #2, and am poised to wipe out #1, and I'm playing as China, not Babylon or some other culture monger civ).

I'm glad my post made you think, even if you eventually conclude that your way is better.

-Arrian

[Rhothaerill]

Well I haven't had a chance to play either of these games, but to both Toe Truck and Mountain Sage. You have the spirit of Apolyton University in this thread without actually being an AU course. I agree with you both that I like the DAR explanations of WHY you chose a specific course of action rather than just choosing that course of action (and in that vein I'll be posting AU209 DARs at Emperor level soon with that thought in mind).

As to the razing AI cities question, my tendency is usually like Arrian's. I don't raze cities until the late ages unless it's an unavoidable autoraze or the city just plain won't work well where it is. I look at early acquisition of AI cities as "free" settlers that allow my core cities to do other things than pump out settlers. Even in the later ages I won't always raze AI cities though, mainly if I expect to take the entire nation quickly.

[vmxa1]

I started to post last night about the razing, but it was too late to think clearly (ok, that could be said any time).
I am an infrequent razing player. In the early part I love to get a capture city as they are often not large and have little culture, hence I need not fear a flip. It is hard for the AI to get units over as they are mostly 1 movement types and the AI has few roads.
I raze if the city is just a poor addition or is not likely to be held. I will be more inclined to raze a city in the modern age. It is then that metros are too large to convert and units are fast moving, so they may be able to get troops to the door soon. I have to commit lots of troops to garrison and it may have rails to it.
I still like to keep cities as often as I can. I will sometimes go on a elimination run if I am doing a conquest only game. Now I am happy to raze those metros and slap my own settler in the spot or near it.

Note this is not a recommendation, just an FYI.

[Theseus]

I, also, have evolved quite a bit in this regard.

When I first started, I NEVER razed, both to gather the benefit of invested shields and sort of emotionally.

Then, for a while, I razed and pillaged EVERYTHING!!! (my personal response to Coracle's then rant)

Now? Pretty much like Arrian... early- to mid-game not an issue, later game maybe, depending especially on where my Palace is, all modified by desired CP. And very selective pillaging, as I want the territory improved (even if it is checker-board irrigated, I want the roads).

And 1-2 turn civ take-downs are my favorite... see my report on capturing England in AU 208 with Berserks... makes the whole issue moot.

[Gufnork]

I tend to very rarely raze cities. In the industrial age it's easy to garrison captured bases (just move your front line defense to the new base) and I'm usually high on culture (love religious civs).

[ToeTruck]

Well, I guess I was wrong about city razing. Is there anyone out there who razes as a rule?

DAR on the Greece game coming soon.

- TT

[Master Zen]

I only raze if the city doesn't fit in the grand scheme of things. With me being more RCP-minded during the last months, that makes me even more prone to doing it as I am more picky with my city placement.

Well, sadly I don't have much time to play civ these days but I'd just like to give some tips on emperor. It's the difficulty level I usually play this and have gotten comfortable enough that I generally avoid micromanaging after having like 5-6 cities.

First of all, the ancient era is crucial. The most vital one if you ask me. You will most likely fall way behind in techs here and in my experience don't get it back until the late medieval or early industrial.

- Begin at 100% research and try and get Warrior Code and Iron Working ASAP. You might also try to get Literature. After you have these, drop science to 0% (and start researching one of those tech which the AI usually delays like Math with a scientific worker). I would ideally suggest an Archer Rush. However, geography sometimes makes this improbable. With a militaristic civ you can even start a rush with your third city (and yes people, it's even possible to do it with only one if you're lucky neighbor is very close and doesn't have spearmen). I can't say how devastating an archer rush is, but just practice to see that I am not lying.

- Swordsman rush. After getting IW or Lit, drop science to 0% (start prebuilding the GL way before though) and begin planning for a mass warrior-swordsman upgrade. You should have hoarded about 10-15 warriors beforehand (the more the merrier). Once you're ready, unleash hell. Repeat with Med Infs/Knights and Cavs until conquering your continent which is very important if you ask me.

- Planning your GA. Even if you have a civ with an early UU, try saving your GA to a good time. My favorite time is the mid medieval with anything other than a scientific civ since it makes universites so much cheaper. If you have to go to war before, try not using your UU. Might make the war harder but a GA on despotism is a waste compared to what it could ahve been with republic or democracy.

- If you're not planning to warmonger early on, drop science to 0% and simply use your cash to buy techs. Techs are cheap in the ancient age and you are almost as better off buying them than researching them. If you can get the Great Library excellent. All your surplus $$ can be used for a massive upgrade.

- In the medieval era technologies branch alot. Try going for those techs that the AI usually avoids (you'll get the hang of it). Whore them as much as you can. By the time you get a lead you should be netting around $100-200 per turn by tech whoring alone. In Emperor this is actually much easier to do than Monarch (hence emperor game's ending much sooner) because the tech pace is faster and the AI usually has more money.

- FP switch. Once you have a solid continental base, think of setting up your FP. When you are in a republic for example, a FP suddenly nets you a huge amount of $$ and can turn the tables as your technological deficit now turns slowly into a lead.

Finally all I can say is practice. When I switched to emperor my first games were won only because I used meticulous micromanagement and flawless city placmeent. Over time, you can get much more sloppy and play with instinct and still win. Once you feel comfortable to rush through emperor games then it's time to move up again... (or not, I still find it impossible to rush through deity... )

[ToeTruck]

DAR - Greece 300AD - Building Begins

I eliminated the Arabs two turns ago, but waited to research Construction to post this DAR. I'll give a summary followed by the maps.

Summary:
- 300AD.
- 18 cities with 3-4 more on the way.
- 13 cities with Libraries.
- Forbidden Palace leader-rushed in Ephesus.
- 7 Workers
- 12 Swords
- 3 Archers
- 2 Warriors
- 10 or so captured Workers
- All Ancient techs except Monarchy and The Republic. Plus my Scientific freebie: Monotheism.

First off, this feels *way* late to be at this point. I should be in a Republic by now, should have all my cities founded, and should have a ton more Workers. Plus I really should have the Great Libray, damnit.

This game illustrates how much slower Archipelago/Continent maps are than Pangaea maps. They are easier in many ways, but definitely slower.

In any case, here's the minimap:


And, here's the zoom view:


Things worth discussing:

1) Every city is either building a Library or has one in place and is building a Marketplace. With three Luxuries and good Culture, Temples take a backseat to Marketplace.

2) My Workers are irrigating the southern plains. BTW - Here's a recap of my worker strategy:
- Mine and road frontline cities.
- Mine and road core cities near the capital.
- Connect luxuries.
- Irrigate plains.
- Fully develop core cities near (or at) the Capital and Forbidden Palace choosing one city to be my SSC (Super Science City).
- Road every tile being worked by a city.
- Clear Jungle and Forests.
- Mine Hills and Mountains.

3) Corinth is currently building a Marketplace. I will switch to Palace immediately. Having Ephesus with the FP and Corinth with the Palace is just about ideal.

4) I could have used my Great Leader to build the FP in Corinth and then jumped my Capital to Ephesus. Two things stopped me:
- Athens' position is not ideal, but it's not stinky either
- Mecca will be my SSC. By placing the FP near Mecca, I ensure it can develop with low corruption.

5) Once I entered the Middle Ages and got Monotheism as my freebie, I had to decide which tech to research next:
- Theology in 22 turns.
- Feudalism in 17 turns.
- Engineering in 19 turns.
- The Republic in 15 turns.

If I had built or capture the Great Library, this would have been easy, but alas the Iroquois built it first.

I want to beeline to Astronomy as quickly as I can, but I also *need* the extra revenue Republic provides. I'm researching The Republic.

6) I'm not yet building any Galleys. That's because I'm a moron and have overlooked that need. Must correct.

7) Once I switch to a Republic, I will disband *every* military unit I have. That will mean 30+ more gold every turn. Heh.

Overall, this is an okay position. I don't think I'll break any early launch records, but I should do pretty well.

I'll be gone this weekend, but will post my next DAR Sunday or Monday night.

This has been fun. Thanks for listening.

- TT

[ToeTruck]

A follow-up on Master Zen's comments

Thanks, MZ, for the comments. You are dead on especially regarding planning a Golden Age and Practice.

Planning the Golden Age is a tricky thing to do, but very beneficial. Most people new to the game consider the GA a bonus that just sort of shows up. Knowing when your GA will occur and engineering it's start is very valuable.

Regarding Practice, I couldn't have said it better. I don't post a lot (I'm only a Warlord afterall). That's because I'm constanly trying out new strategies.

Start soapbox.

Everyone should try taking a starting position and re-loading until they get it right. That takes a long time, but the things you learn along the way are very valuable. Also keep a log. Write down what you are doing, when you did it, and why.

End soapbox.

- TT