Poland as a new civ in Conquests

[Gen8]

Originally posted by BulMaster
... let's see just how great poland was in WWII since it's the only thing you mentioned:

"But the King himself, Bulgarian intellectuals, the Orthodox Church and the general public resisted strongly Hitler's demand that all Bulgarian jews be deportedto the death camps in Poland. Bulgarian jews were saved from the Holocaust and almost all of them regard the King as their saviour.

50,000 Bulgarian Jews survived...."

WOW look how great you are, if you resisted that much how come you exterminated jews?

That argument is completely false.
Jews weren't exterminated in polish death camps. They were exterminated in camps in Poland (exact quote). In polish territory occupied by Axis. Death camps in Poland were built and managed by Germans. Jews, Poles, Russians and other people (mostly from slavic nations) died here.

[Heresson]

Personally, I think Bulgarians deserve civ place much more than Serbs, which were proposed. They had a giant influence on history of Middle Ages. One of the things You haven't mentioned was Klokotnica battle, and it's also worth mentioning. But...

Also for the ottomans we are the one that showed the biggest resistance

Not in the time they were conquering You, though...
Bulgaria was weak and divided into several kingdoms in that time, even fading away Byzantines were stronger... Turkish conquest of Bulgaria was a peace of cake for them

and suffered the most of their power

That's not any reason to be in

"Bulgarians are registered on themap as the 1st millenium before the birth of christ" so how long before poland my friend make the maths!

Do You feel Turk?

Oh btw it was very hard for me to find what are poland's origins are you german or russian? And as the french call you poland is that weird state that you never know if it's on the map of europe it always appears and disappears.

And are You Turkish or Greek? Bulgaria was under one's occupation for the most of its history...

WOW look how great you are, if you resisted that much how come you exterminated jews?

You're an idiot. Sorry to say that.

BTW you were founded in 966

And You were founded in 864 (or was it 865), if You think
a baptisement is the start of a state

Oh, and by the way, Macedonians claim some of "your" tzars as their


he he he
Macedonians claim theirselves as theirs

[BulMaster]

Allright i'm jerk and idiot and whatever you want I got carried away, defended my country in a lost debate, used a couple of wrong arguments and hurt some feeling without intending too.

I appoligise to everyone who feels he need an appolagy from me, especialy to the gen and panag. As for to settle the debate here, be realistic every nations deserves to be in Civ3 if you someone doens't then you are descreminating.
Congratulations to Heresson for beating my arguments which some of them were wrongly written to make it easy which reminds me of a poem written by a bulgarian poet about armenia, wish i could translate but it will loose it's beauty, but it remains a great poem non the less, oops getting carried away again, ooh and don't bring macedonia into this please you know nothing about it to make comments on that delicate issue.

kind regards

[Gen8]

You don't have to apologize (that's my opinion, at least), really.
You were just mistaken and I posted correction, that's it

As for the topic, I truly doubt Poland will be in Conquests. It's a bit too late for such propositions. List of seven new civs is seemingly complete now:

Maya, Inca, Sumer, Dutch, Portugal, Byzantium, Hittites.

[Heresson]

Sorry for calling You...
And now, tell me something about present and past relations between Bulgaria and Macedonia, and anything You can. It may be interesting

[Vince278]

Originally posted by Gen8
It's a bit too late for such propositions.

Sigh. If there is anything more tedious than repeating myself its watching others repeating myself. Time to close this out before we start discussing Macedonian history too. (BTW: It would be more interesting to discuss Macedonian-Greek relations than Macedonian-Bulgarian)

[Heresson]

Macedonian-Greek relations were already discussed

[BulMaster]

bah stupid forum had troubles accesing it last night and the bulgaro-macedonian relations didn't get posted bah stupid forums well will post them again. BTW why would macedonia - greek be more interesting than macedonia - bulgaria

will post when i get home tonight

[Vince278]

Originally posted by BulMaster
bah stupid forum had troubles accesing it last night and the bulgaro-macedonian relations didn't get posted bah stupid forums well will post them again. BTW why would macedonia - greek be more interesting than macedonia - bulgaria

will post when i get home tonight

Well, if it was covered before I won't bring it up again (besides, Apolyton's co-administrator is in the Greek army now... )

[mr Rura]

okey, i was on holiday, sorry for waiting

"But the King himself, Bulgarian intellectuals, the Orthodox Church and the general public resisted strongly Hitler's demand that all Bulgarian jews be deportedto the death camps in Poland. Bulgarian jews were saved from the Holocaust and almost all of them regard the King as their saviour. 50,000 Bulgarian Jews survived...."

well, every nation has got also bad sides of it's own history. Bulgaria also... And not less than Poland...

"WOW look how great you are, if you resisted that much how come you exterminated jews?"

it's true, but was a decision of only a FEW stupid men. As I don't reproach the Britons the decision of not attacking the Germans in 1939, as I also don't see any sense of occusing us this way. Moreover, many Poles risked their lives helping hebrews to escape and hide, smuggle food and weapons to ghettos... Hatred and reluctance to Jews was rather exception than rule. If you have seen a film "The Pianist", you should know about it. Remember that this film is based on a true story - a Szpilman's book...

"Bulgarians are registered on the map as the 1st millenium before the birth of christ so how long before poland my friend make the maths!" I meant a state, not a roaming tribes... in my encyclopedia i have found a note "state since 681"... Slavian tribes existed much earlier than the polish state.

"Bulgarians founded 5 states in euro-asia region."

so?

"And as the french call you poland is that weird state that you never know if it's on the map of europe it always appears and disappears."

education in France is on a very low level, I don't see any reason to be amazed of their lack of knowledge. And don't try to say that Bulgaria is better known in France than Poland, you would be very funny... btw where do you know it
from? It's funny to hear it from a nation which had strongest army than Poland and lost war almost without resistance... They even didn't forecast bypassing the Maginots line by Wehrmaht...

And your country haven't dissapeared from the map? Not once...

"khan Krum, who was in power from 803 to 814 AD..."

very interesting note, I'm impressed but I would have no difficulty to find such interesting txt about Poland... Poland in golden age also was a very powerful country, which gained a dominance in the region. There was a moment when we were stronger than Prussia, Russia and Austria-Hungary...

"Do you want a statement about who created the first CPU? Since bulgarians invented it well you should thanks us for you beeing able to crack the enigma code."

If you nation hadn't invited it, probably someone would have done it a bit later; so it has no tremendous meaning...

"Here you go my friend if you want more just ask."

no, thanks

"BTW you were founded in 966"

yes, but slavic tribes existed much earlier... 966 is only the beginning of polish state.

"Also count the time the word power is mentioned the info is from foreign sites i especialy didn't took info from bg sites so you won't accuse me of using nationalistic litterature what is ecsacly what you are doing."

I didn't write the IIWW stories from any "nationalistic literature". Just from my head... But it's all true, believe me.

"Don't take me wrong [...]"

I agree with you. I imagine how cruel the Ottomans were... But I didn't say that Hitler suffered us much. Both my grandparents survived a forced labor in the IIWW, but they say that a simple German wasn't very atrocious, only few were. Only strong patriots and members of resistance groups were tortured to gain secret informations. There were more problems Russians and especially Ukrainians, which even in XX century were almost as cruel as Ottomans, believe me. If you knowed their horrible tortures, brrr! Tearing off the nails was the most popular, but there were more "interesting".

"PS: Change your signature"

Why? Isn't it interesting?

"I leave you win, really hope Poland will be in c3c simply because we don't need a game to know how great, proud and beautiful our country is we have our history to remind us of it."

1.We also don't need any game to know it. I only think that it would be honest to place our nation in the game...
2.Poland won't be included in that expansion - there are Dutch and Portugeese nations there now...
3.I don't believe that you really want my nation to be placed in that xp.
4.I don't feel as the winner. Let's come to compromise and agree that our nations are equally important. Pax!

___________________________

"Poles were a part of the team in WWII, quite far from being the be-all and end-all. The Eniga effort involved thousands, most British Navy, Air Force, and Intelligence. Other nationalities, like some Americans and Europeans, were heavily involved."

Yes, many nation tried to broke it, but only Poles have done that! I can tell it with all responsibility. To be honest: If we hadn't broken it, someone else would have probably done it, but we were first. It was broken by Poles and delivered to allies.

Many Polish individuals made great contributions during the war but Poland as a nation was severely victimized."

Almost every european country was victimized by Hitler. Only UK defended itself, but it's located on the island, and Soviet Union, because of it's huge population and large territoty. Wehrmacht was the greatest army in the whole world, only the worldwide alliance against it was efficient. Poland was alone then... It's hard to be amazed that Poland wasn't able to defend...

But in the XXX decade of XX century Poland was much stronger than the 3rd Reich. Hitler occused Poland, I don't know what he said, but he did. Josef Pilsudski threatened him so strongly, that he decided to apologise Poland by the radio! It's a historical fact!

Using WWII as an argument on including Poland in Civ is not a good idea.

Why not?

_____________________________

"with what planes , ..... the polish airforce was " ZIP " before the war broke out"

well, we used the brittish Spitfires and Hurricans... But the crew of that divisions were in 90% polish, in the 303th division there were only three Btitons, and one Czech...

But the results of the Polish division 303 were excellent. In the most critical month of this battle polish divion 303 destroyed 108 german airplanes. The second division was the british team - they destroyed only 48 planes!!! The 302 polish division didn't fought then, they joined the battle later, but their results aren't much worse... We lost only 5 fighters then - and the average number of lost fighters in one division was 15...

[BulMaster]

aggreed

[Heresson]

Good Bully.

[Vince278]

Wow. Nobody can deny your dedication and passion.
I largely agree with everything you wrote and greatly appreciate your efforts to show us a Polish point of view. I only have a few comments:

Originally posted by mr Rura
education in France is on a very low level, I don't see any reason to be amazed of their lack of knowledge.

Even I would not be so unkind towards France.

Originally posted by mr Rura
And your country haven't dissapeared from the map? Not once....

It may be argued that partitioning a country isn't much better. It happened to France (Vichy), Germany (Cold War), and even Poland (Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact).

Originally posted by mr Rura
If you nation hadn't invited it, probably someone would have done it a bit later; so it has no tremendous meaning...

Thats not very nice either. Same could be said for almost any invention.

Originally posted by mr Rura
I didn't write the IIWW stories from any "nationalistic literature". Just from my head... But it's all true, believe me.

You just refuted your own argument.

Originally posted by mr Rura
4.I don't feel as the winner. Let's come to compromise and agree that our nations are equally important. Pax!

Well said.

Originally posted by mr Rura

"Poles were a part of the team in WWII, quite far from being the be-all and end-all. The Eniga effort involved thousands, most British Navy, Air Force, and Intelligence. Other nationalities, like some Americans and Europeans, were heavily involved."

Yes, many nation tried to broke it, but only Poles have done that! I can tell it with all responsibility. To be honest: If we hadn't broken it, someone else would have probably done it, but we were first. It was broken by Poles and delivered to allies.

I think you missed the point I was trying to make about it being a team effort. It may have been Poles that made the breakthrough but I believe they were in England using English facilities; using intelligence from England, America, and France; and assisted or was assisted by many people from many countries. The Allies realized that if anyone tried to go it alone it would've taken too long or failed.

Originally posted by mr Rura
Almost every european country was victimized by Hitler. Only UK defended itself, but it's located on the island, and Soviet Union, because of it's huge population and large territoty. Wehrmacht was the greatest army in the whole world, only the worldwide alliance against it was efficient. Poland was alone then... It's hard to be amazed that Poland wasn't able to defend...

Everyone defended themselves (even Poland) but some were more successful than others. The UK didn't have an army landing on their shores but they were getting hammered by planes and missles. The Soviet's huge population suffered huge losses. I also wouldn't call the Allies efficient but the odds were greatly in their favor.

Originally posted by mr Rura
But in the XXX decade of XX century Poland was much stronger than the 3rd Reich. Hitler occused Poland, I don't know what he said, but he did. Josef Pilsudski threatened him so strongly, that he decided to apologise Poland by the radio! It's a historical fact!

That may be true but it is also equally possible Hitler was deceiving Pilsudski by appearing to be sorry. Hitler was a master deceiver, he completely fooled Neville Chamberlain and Josef Stalin, among others, as to his intentions (and Stalin was an expert deceiver himself). Being sorry isn't something Hitler was noted for. Its possible he was just being politically expedient while setting Poland up for a fall.

Originally posted by mr Rura

Using WWII as an argument on including Poland in Civ is not a good idea.

Why not?

Mostly because WWII (officially) lasted about six years in Europe, a very small amount of time on a Civ scale. Perhaps it would have been better if I said "Using WWII as the only argument on including Poland".

Originally posted by mr Rura

"with what planes , ..... the polish airforce was " ZIP " before the war broke out"

well, we used the brittish Spitfires and Hurricans... But the crew of that divisions were in 90% polish, in the 303th division there were only three Btitons, and one Czech...

Without a doubt the Polish Air Force fought bravely and well against heavy odds, definitely far from being "ZIP".
There are two historical points I'm not clear on:
1. How long did the Air Force in Poland last as an effective fighting force?
2. I heard a large part of the Polish calvary was actually horse calvary instead of tanks. Is this correct?

Thank-you again for a long and interesting post. I like studying military history and I enjoy hearing your point of view.

[Heresson]

Even I would not be so unkind towards France.

My friend met two girls from France in Poland. She were heavily suprised they weren't going through Russia.

Thats not very nice either. Same could be said for almost any invention.

That's true, but the difference is that cracking Enigma even a bit later would be a big change...

I think you missed the point I was trying to make about it being a team effort. It may have been Poles that made the breakthrough but I believe they were in England using English facilities; using intelligence from England, America, and France; and assisted or was assisted by many people from many countries. The Allies realized that if anyone tried to go it alone it would've taken too long or failed.

Your mistake is that You forget that Enigma secret was broken in Poland BEFORE the war started (1933 or so), and in 1939 two ready machines were sent to Britain and France.

Everyone defended themselves (even Poland) but some were more successful than others. The UK didn't have an army landing on their shores but they were getting hammered by planes and missles.

Imagine the war in Afghanistan without the Northern Alliance....

The Soviet's huge population suffered huge losses. I also wouldn't call the Allies efficient but the odds were greatly in their favor.

Yes, Soviets suffered huge losses, because they could afford that, like cleaning minefields by infantry marshes....

[Panag]

hi ,

still not one single act of what the polish air force did , .....

they did ZIP , why , cause they where put to pieces before they could take off , ..... and since they had almost next to nothing that you can call " air force " , .....

have a nice day