How Supply and Demand Lists Are Determined

[Bloody Monk]

@SCG

I find it very strange that you get a different demand list in 242<0, example. Does the game act differently under differing operating systems--I use WinXPhome. I also have MPGE in a different directory.

Monk

[SCG]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
@SCG

I find it very strange that you get a different demand list in 242<0, example. Does the game act differently under differing operating systems--I use WinXPhome. I also have MPGE in a different directory.

Monk

Based on the directory that the saves leading up to jo_a200.sav are located in and the time stamps, and my original thread, i originally had different supply/demand lists for 2.42 on a windows ME install pre MGE than i do now post MGE install, but still running the 2.42 game. So, i would say that it is not OS dependant. (I've only had MGE since the end of january, and my thread was from 20 months ago). I don't have enough room to install MGE on my old computer atm, but i may test that out later to be sure. I do find it rather puzzling, even if i now know how to duplicate it now.

[Bloody Monk]

Well, I was detailing the different results I got on my box with XP compared to the results you got using another OS. This with both of us using a save from my box to generate these differing results.

One would suppose that a save "ought" to generate the same results on two boxes using the same version of the game. Otherwise, why post saves at all??

It means to me that some random factor is yet to be discovered.

Monk

[SCG]

Ok, this is a little confusing. I installed MGE on my old computer (can't play it though till i install a working CD drive on that one - it doesn't like reading the CD from a network drive when playing), and then loaded ca_a1320.sav back in the 2.42 version. Results are unchanged from before the installation. I then reinstalled 2.42 on the new computer. Now both the old and new copies of 2.42 on the ME machine give results more (but not completely) consistant with the installation on the win95 machine. the old and new copies of 2.42 have the same timestamp and size. (I copied the 2.42 and called it civ2242 before reinstall so wasn't copied over) However, the civ2107.exe still gives the altered commodities (running in the same directory so reading from the same files). Looks like i may have had multiple minutely corrupted files.

Incedentally, MGE still gives different commodities than all 3 of the 2.42 versions and the (corrupted?) 1.07 version

MGE
supply: (Cloth) Oil (Salt)
demand: Copper Silk Uranium

2.42 (ME reinstall)
supply: (Cloth) (Copper) (Salt)
demand: Uranium Coal Silk => Dye Silk Coal

1.07c
supply: Beads Wine (Salt)
demand: Uranium Hides Dye => Dye Hides Uranium (reorder, but no change)

2.42 (95 install)
supply: (Cloth) (Copper) (Salt) => (Copper) Oil (Salt)
demand: Uranium Coal Silk => Copper Silk Uranium

(corrupted?) 2.42 and 1.07
Supply: Beads Wine (Salt)
Demand: Uranium Hides Dye => Dye Hides Coal

also, from the 2.42 patch.txt under the changes for version 1.11:
* The Supply/Demand equation for commodities has been revised somewhat.

Is the game is consistant every time in choosing between wildcards when there are 3 to choose from (including oil and uranium)? If it isn't, that might explain the remaining variation? Otherwise, I may need to uninstall and reinstall my 2.42 version instead of install over...

[Scouse Gits]

The Bread Wonder Trick is useful for releasing new commodities in a large city. However, I didn't know that it works in reverse! Playing the second Early Landing Comparison Game I completed a caravan in the SSC where the wonder was to be built. When I placed the caravan back into the city to "help build the wonder" it blocked my supply commodities.

Is this well know or have I missed something ?

----------------------

SG(2)

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
The Bread Wonder Trick is useful for releasing new commodities in a large city. However, I didn't know that it works in reverse! Playing the second Early Landing Comparison Game I completed a caravan in the SSC where the wonder was to be built. When I placed the caravan back into the city to "help build the wonder" it blocked my supply commodities.

Is this well know or have I missed something ?

----------------------

SG(2)

Solo will have the definitive response, and a save would be useful. Were there three routes in place?? Were there undelivered commodity vans still "on the road"??

BTW, in the US there is a national brand of bread under the label "Wonder Bread", hence, the Wonder Bread Trick.

Monk

[SCG]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
The Bread Wonder Trick is useful for releasing new commodities in a large city. However, I didn't know that it works in reverse! Playing the second Early Landing Comparison Game I completed a caravan in the SSC where the wonder was to be built. When I placed the caravan back into the city to "help build the wonder" it blocked my supply commodities.

Is this well know or have I missed something ?
SG(2)

Originally posted by solo
Only three triggers in both games:
.
.
.
3) A caravan delivery to or from the city, or the use of a caravan produced by the city to help make a wonder, acts as an independent trigger, working on any turn to update a city's lists. As with 2.42 cycle turn looks, a "correct" list results. As with MGE multiplayer cycle turn city looks, the use of a caravan will trigger the dye bug in MGE games.

it sounds to me that the city list needed to be updated, and was lacking a trigger, for which the delivery provided. I've noticed that in my own games where other cities still have trade routes to my SSC which i had replaced by deliveries elsewhere, and a trigger reset the list to where the old commodities reappeared, and since there are existing routes in other cities they therefore became blocked.

[solo]

SG(2),

I agree with SCG's reasoning, but would like to see a save if you can provide one.

When supplies are unblocked to begin with, I try not to do anything that might mess things up.

[Elephant]

Solo - did you or Samson do any research into what makes a city's demand not get blocked when demanded commodities delivered? I had a great run with the Mongol city of Karak... in EL#1, it would move its demand around after a delivery but rarely got blocked, sometimes a second delivery unblocked it. Commodities such as Silk, Coal, and Wine kept coming back up again.

[solo]

Elephant,

Commodity demand is blocked when a new trade route is created, or if an existing trade route is replaced. Three established routes with a city (or cities) having high values of base trade in the source city will allow it to deliver commodities to cities with lower base trade without blocking their demands. This is demonstarted in one of my unblocking examples, posted in the EL thread for game #1.

[Scouse Gits]

Originally posted by solo
SG(2),I agree with SCG's reasoning, but would like to see a save if you can provide one.

I will post a save when I finish the game (Early Landing #2)

------------------

SG(2)

[Elephant]

Originally posted by solo
Elephant,

Commodity demand is blocked when a new trade route is created, or if an existing trade route is replaced. Three established routes with a city (or cities) having high values of base trade in the source city will allow it to deliver commodities to cities with lower base trade without blocking their demands. This is demonstarted in one of my unblocking examples, posted in the EL thread for game #1.

Yes; the focus of my question was on refreshing of the Demanded commodities, not the Supplied.

So if my SSC gets 3 early routes to a city (in EL#1 it was Karakorum), other cities can deliver to Kara without disturbing the primary routes. What I found in EL#1 was that Karas demanded commodities list often refreshed to different, unblocked commodities after each delivery. I'll try to go back through my log and saves and document the changes.

[solo]

Elephant,

Sometimes the new lists are due to an update to lists in which dye or copper are cancelled causing them to be knocked off the demand lists. A following cycle turn in 2.42 re-implements the copper-dye bug in AI cities. This bug is the underlying cause for many wholesale list changes during a game.

[solo]

I have bumped this since the link was not working.

[hardjoy]

Impressive stuff... always wondered how this worked -its been very helpful. I am in the process of polishing up a historical scenario and I wanted the trade goods somewhat reasonable for the period. Your guide gave me a couple of hints about which ressources to rename for effect.

Still I wonder how some trade goods can be in so extremely high demand, yet just a few cities or even none supply them. In scenarios this system sometimes lead to extremely absurd trade situations, but now at least I understand the beauty of it