How Supply and Demand Lists Are Determined

[samson]

The demand for Copper is pretty much what I stated above in the discussion of the bug. I probably need to formulize it and post it above. Dye is a different story, even when "normalized" I don't have a formula for it yet. I got a little distracted playing with huts.


Yes, it is complicated. And two things bother me, in addition to the Dye/Copper bug. Continent size is a pain to figure and it can't be done until the continent is fully known. Fortunately, only Spice uses that factor. The other is City# which is also hard to know, especially on MGE. Again, it is not a frequently used factor.

[samson]

Best guesses for Dye and Copper demand have been added to the formulas list with an explanation of the Dye/Copper bug as now understood.

The formula for Dye demand depends on the formula for the Supply of Cloth. Which makes sense actually, since it is primarily used to dye cloth.

The common factor in both Dye and Copper demand that appears in no other formula is Roads. This must be the source of the D/C bug or is itself an artifact of that bug.

To minimize the impact of the Dye/Copper bug during game play, on 2.4.2 view the City Display of each city on its 16-year cycle turn. On MGE, avoid doing this.

More formula testing is still needed, especially on Oil and Uranium in late game situations.

And of course, we're still looking for an adventurous soul to program a spreadsheet to do these calculations in a jiff.

[Elephant]

I would have thought coastlines would have had something to do with Dye, since BC in the Med the royal purple color was made from crushed shellfish. Oh well, not all historical reasoning applies to CIV.

I've started a stab at an Excel spreadsheet but I'm really rusty, especially in the integer math functions of Excel. And then there is trying to keep on top of the year-end paying work...

[Grigor]

[*not just a bump*]

Is anybody going to put this into the Great Library?

[goape]

Im quite bew to all of this and I am not sure I understand it fully. It is said in your supply formulas that Hides requires forest, glacier, tundra, jungle and rivers. Surely I must be understanding this wrong as I have had cities that supply hides without a mixture of all these terrains together. To put it simply I don't understand the way you have displayed the location requirements.

Any help would be most appreciated as I wish to expand my knowledge of trade.

[solo]

goape,

All you need is one of those terrain types in your city radius for a chance of supplying hides.

If you have a city supplying hides that does not have any of those terrain types, check its supply wildcard, which can be hides. Wildcards are only based on a city's grid coordinates, so for them, terrain does not come into play.

If you still have a city supplying hides without the right terrain or wildcard, please post a save of that game, as I would like to see it and check it.

[SCG]

Since we seem to have a much better understanding of supply/demand lists, maybe someone can explain what is happening here finally? I originally posted in this thread which really didn't go anywhere.

The game is 2.42, King level, large map, 200 ad. The effect is reproducable in my 2.42 version, but not on my MGE version (5.2.5f). The phenomenon is that in 2 cities (Parkersburg (31,25), Fairmont (29,13)) on this turn have different supply/demand lists depending placement of workers. If net production of shields is >0, we have 1 set of lists, if the production is 0 or less, we have another list. Even stranger is that whichever list you choose by placement of workers becomes the locked in place list for the next turn.

Anyone care to tackle this one?

[solo]

SCG,

This is a new one to me.

I took a look at a game of my own and was able to make changes to the demand lists in some cities, when shields were lowered to zero or less. The changes in my demand lists were caused by a new and very large demand quotient for copper, and this is related to the copper bug observed by Samson and myself.

No changes were observed for any of my supply lists though, and I would like to inspect a save where this happens, if you are able to post one.

[SCG]

the save was originally posted in the other thread
here it is again

[solo]

SCG,

Thanks, I ended up finding it there, and a high copper demand quotient is being triggered in your cities too. There's a definite connection with the copper bug, since zero or less shields will tsometimes trigger it. Not always though, which is a mystery.

Your supply lists changed because copper appeared on them before lowering shields. A high DQ switched copper to the #1 slot on the demand list, causing changes to both supply and demand lists afterwards. In my own cities where I observed this, copper did not appear in supply lists, so my supply lists did not change.

I also noticed that these changes were reflected in the trade advisor's supply and demand lists.

This is a great find and is another exploit we can add to our bag of tricks for altering commodity supply and demand.

[SCG]

here's the screen shot from Parkersburg, before and after - on the suppy side, Dye changes to Wine

[Scouse Gits]

Good catch SCG! I will start looking out for this one. Just hope it works at Deity.

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SG(2)

[goape]

Thank you for your reply Solo. I have another question, which I should have addressed to you earlier. Am I correct in assuming that the more terrain in the city radius that matches the requirements of the commodity (as per the formula) increase the likely hood of receiving the commodity in the city supply? Also how do the multiples relate to this? Does it specify the maximum limit of certain terrain (including the special at x3) that is permitted before excluding the commodity from the supply? I am finding all of this new information on trade quite hard to fully comprehend, I am a slow learner but I do get there eventually.

On a side note I am surprised at the frequency of the postings here. I have a subscription at Civilisation Fanatics Forums yet I am disappointed by the lack o interest in Civ 2 over there. It would seem that the more (dare I say it) advanced players are here and are really getting stuck in to the Civ 2 engine. I really like the idea of taking Civ 2 apart and seeing how it all works. Please bear with me as my mind is more mechanically minded than mathematically. I will try to keep the annoying questions to a minimum. Thankyou.

[SCG]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
Good catch SCG! I will start looking out for this one. Just hope it works at Deity.

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SG(2)

I pulled up Bloody Monk's early landing save, and Ravenna's demand list changed when dropped to 0 production (Coal and Silk swapped places, Uranium changed to Dye) but only worked in the 2.42 version, not in the MGE version. And on the next turn, whatever the chosen demand list was was then locked into position.

As a test, i created 2 Antium dye freights on the next turn in cheat mode, dye was demanded (242) and triggered a change back to Uranium. 2nd dye was undemanded (121) The reverse was not true though. Delivering a Uranium freight (484) did not trigger a change back to dye.

So looks like it works in Diety, but only with 2.42 and deliveries do trigger the commodities back to how they were before the alteration.

[Bloody Monk]

@SCG,

Positively amazing!! Thanks for the heads-up on this.

In the Ravenna example, copper held the center supply slot. Is that what you searched for to force this change?? How did you come to discover this, if you don't mind filling in the blanks??

Monk