New "Ancient Empires" PBEM created

[Peaster]

Understood, R2.

Sinbad has the day off, but the Persian Bureau of Guessing What Babylon Might Mean replies:

1) Sinbad wrote "... a border 3 squares from Ecbatana, and we refuse to accept any more such abuse" Our wise King meant generic abuse, not Ecbatana abuse. And "refuse to accept" does not imply "attack".

ST "Does it mean Persia will try to change borders at Ecbatana by force?" Somehow we did not connect your question with Sinbad's previous statement, and supposed you were bringing up the old 2890 border for no good reason. We cannot change that old border now, but it certainly affects Persian thinking about western borders.

2) We recall that Babylon asked, in effect, how far they could push Persia [presumably in the Al Kabir region] without starting a war.

a) If Babylon insists on "We WILL inspect the entire river, and do it OUR way"... expect a war.

b) If Babylon screws around with one weak unit moving on/off the Persian border (why?), it will make things worse. Persia would probably try talk before fighting. Feel lucky, punk?

c) If Babylon accepts Persia's gracious invitation to inspect and leave, and otherwise behaves in a reaonable fashion, then Babylon's Ministry of War can easily calculate the probability of a Persian attack -

c1) Get a rough estimate of the probability from your perceptive King ST, from 0 to 100.
c2) Divide his percentage by 2
c3) Subtract 50%.

[Zedd]

Boy, am I glad we fired that "Crayon" artist.

Oh, this thing is on.......well...............Ahem.

Minoa Would like to announce the completion of a Grand new Palace in Knoss, It's magnificence and beauty has inspired our Masons, Crafters, and Artisans to take immeasurable pride in their cities and buildings. With each city competing with each other to be the most prestigious, these skilled workers have agreed to improve and maintain many of the city structures FREE OF CHARGE.

Also after reviewing some of our old maps the previous city planner decided to.....ah............take some time off.
His replacement will be re-naming "New Mari" to "New Mallia" in proper tribute.

[SlowThinker]

1)
borders at Ecbatana/Adab:
>We cannot change that old border now

Babylonian Bureau asks: Does it mean you will try to change that border later? Or you want to stress Persia could change that border in past only?

>ST "Does it mean Persia will try to change borders at Ecbatana by force?" Somehow we did not connect your question with Sinbad's previous statement

We don't wonder why Persian 'Bureau of GWBMM' has such a strange name. If they engaged more perceptive officials they would see the Sinbad's previous statement started by words
"We expect that war looms ahead"

2)
>If Babylon screws around with one weak unit moving on/off the Persian border...Persia would probably try talk before fighting

We had such a suspicion. Persia pretended negotiating about Al-Kabir but these lands were drawn in the Persian maps already!
Will GWBMM reveal us what is 'Persia' now - or is it a secret?

>If Babylon accepts Persia's gracious invitation to inspect and leave

'Persia's gracious invitation' had one defect so far - after Babylon accepted it the Persian skirmisher 'forgot' to free an access to the river.

[Straybow]

Business as usual in Hatte. Merchants ply their trade and the King is happy with his taxes. Ancyra builds a Trade Center. So many businesses all in one place. If only a roof could be built over the whole area, and the heat of summer or cold of winter kept out somehow...


Nearly forgot to mention: The TEMPLE OF KARNAK STRAYBOW IS BUILT!

The King is going on vacation for a week, having absolutely no fear that his time at the helm will come up again before then...

[Peaster]

Congratulations to the Minoans and Hittites on two new Temples !

ST - IMO we are not communicating very well, and should try to sort all this out by email (the last border email I got from you was Aug 5). And when did you accept the Pers invitation to scout? What words did you use? The entire BGWBMM has been detained...

[Straybow]

/me looks again at F7 list

I can only guess that the ribbon-cutting ceremony for the "completed" Palace of Knossos will be in 2530.

[SlowThinker]

Retrieving what was said
>Curious - Could you remind me when I "questioned squares 2 points from Nimrud and Arraphka." ? I remember including (134,46) in the Tushpa line accidentally, and correcting it immediately.

2 points from Arraphka:
Your last statement related to that point is "IMO the blue line in post 2863 is about right, but it is negotiable". But OK, let us say you questioned/claimed a square 3 points from Arraphka and 1.25 of movepoint from Arraphka. Do you think it is 'reasonable'?

2 points from Nimrud:
You conditioned Bab ownership of that point with Persian ownership of hills around.
(I inserted annotation in square brackets)

ST: "I plan to build a city at the end of Hekallush's river [=Zariqum] ... And I am speculating I could send the Nimrud's farmer to found a city at 122,38." [2 squares from Nimrud]
S: "If I grant you the valley (which I have basically already done) and these two wishes (which seem very reasonable) [=Zariqum + Grs 2 squares from Nimrud] I would ask for a few good defensive squares in the mountains. I mainly mean the squares (125,37) and (123,35) and 129,39)"

>And when did you accept the Pers invitation to scout? What words did you use?

You quoted it yourself on previous page:
ST: "If Persian skirmisher moves to 125,35 now I can send a C2 (I have no horse in the area) to upper Al Kabir and return to 122,36."

[SlowThinker]

Words about war
Sinbad, I didn't answer your last personal letter (about 4 days old) because you wrote a very similar message here, and so I supposed you wanted to move talks here. So far I owe to re-explain my view to our Assyrian spoils deal/gift, but first I would like your words about possible war are clarified publicly:

IMO you HAVE right to declare you would start a war in specific situations, for example if Bab EC enters 'Persia', but you should specify what you consider 'Persia' exactly.
Only then I can answer: I can say "yes, let us have war", or "Babylon will give in, but will end all relations with Persia", or "no problem for Babylon"...
If you don't specify exactly what is 'Persia' then your words may be degraded to menacing that you likely don't mean seriously.

And second sentence that is not clarified publicly is "We cannot change that old border now".

[Zedd]

I can only guess that the ribbon-cutting ceremony for the "completed" Palace of Knossos will be in 2530.

No, remaining shields were purchased in Knoss so It should have built this turn. I will check the save when I get home, and Pray until then.

[SlowThinker]

Things proceed slowly, so I am sending a reply that I owed:

Assyrian spoils
>Your point in part 1) is as clear as mud to me. Whether you call them spoils talks or gift talks or whatever, basically Babylon was returning a favor.

The point was we had determined a precise system how to share spoils and losses of War.

>IMO you have still not made a connection between these talks and Persian concessions on borders. If other Kings see a clear connection, pls explain it to me.

* The Alliance accepted a system 'what you conquered is yours'.
* The Assyrian land drawn in the old map of Persia+Assyria was conquered by Armies of Babylonian Front (ABF).
* Persia got her part (10%) of spoils conquered by ABF (including land spoils)
* During the spoil talks we didn't know what Assyria exactly was (due to Sinbad's lethe) and we counted only land suitable for small cities. Since there are several squares of Assyria that are out of perimeter of reasonable city positions, Persia might ask 10% of this land now.

Sinbad, if you think any point is wrong please explain.

>As astute readers may have guessed, Persia did not actually GET the 100g ST refers to. Various deductions were made for tech gains, etc.

But we did it many times and you never complained... If Babylon shall pay 300g to Persia and Persia shall pay 180g to Babylon then Babylon pays 120g and things are settled. What is wrong about it?
Yes, Sinbad asked that also plundered techs and gold were included in the spoils settlement (in Persian terminology 'Persia asked a 10% gift from plunder'). Sinbad also suggested gold value of one tech. But he forgot Persia plundered Nimrud and Arraphka, and so the total plunder was -70g for Persia.
So land(+100g) + plunder(-70g) in the aggregate was only +30g for Persia.

[SlowThinker]

I don't know what happened to Sinbad. I asked those questions about war here, I also sent e-papyruses (maybe lost?) where I explained possible manoeuvres of the EC and asked which ones would cause a war, and I asked Sinbad for a new barter with a farmer that Sinbad forgot to add in Pers->Bab barter (Nimrud is being dismantled for safety reasons and it won't exist in Persian 2540 year anymore)
It looks Sinbad was shortly in his bureau about 20 hrs ago but he wasn't present since then.
The Immo

Situation between Persia and Babylon is not easy and so I ask for one day extension (if Peaster doesn't return soon).
ST

[SlowThinker]

Peaster lives - I got the barter and he visited our neighbours (Seeds #2). But it looks he missed that there is traffic here and my e-mail (about EC movement) was lost. So I am waiting...

[Peaster]

ST - What a crisis ! Peaster is missing one day ! [But see post 2918]. I repeat - we should try to settle such diplomatic issues by email, and before our turns start.

For example, I clearly offered to let you inspect the river approx 4 weeks ago, with very clear directions. You threatened force, and gave no hint that you would accept, then waited until it was too late [my turn was effectively over] to "accept". Now that you have privately accepted, with a promise of no tricks, I intend to allow it.

IMO I have already answered your questions publicly and privately. For most imaginable 2540BC purposes, such as Bab scouting, consider the Persian border to include the Tushpa line and the old eastern border. Please avoid these [see post #2911]. I have already explained that this could be negotiated, if done reasonably and promptly, but I have been waiting a looong time for clear answers from you. For example, you have waffled about the upper-upper Al Kabir. Now you say it "should be Persian" but you do not accept that it "is Persian". Soon, Sinbad will say "We already know what is Persian, and do not need more talk".

I am not sure there are any unanswered questions in your recent email/posts, but will look again today and send you another email ASAP.

[SlowThinker]

>You threatened force...

While we talked about borders, PERSIA occupied the disputed areas by her units (including a C2). Now when BABYLON also wants draw a single EC there, you are threatening by war.
And finally you say I threatened force??

>For example, you have waffled about the upper-upper Al Kabir. Now you say it "should be Persian" but you do not accept that it "is Persian".

In place of garbling my words let us cite them:
ST: "Again: We are in the middle of borders talks. Therefore NOW I don't accept the tip of Al Kabir is Persian.
I think the tip of Al Kabir should be Persian. I also think the tip of Arrariver and some squares on upper Al Kabir should be Babylonian."
And now please explain what was not clear to you.

>I have already explained that this could be negotiated, if done reasonably and promptly, but I have been waiting a looong time for clear answers from you.

From end of War I was trying to hurry up borders talks, and you always rested easy. After you occupied lands by force, you suddenly lost patience...

[SlowThinker]

Edit: playing now