New "Ancient Empires" PBEM created

[SlowThinker]

The war spoils in Mesopotamia

Originally posted by Sinbad
Babylon offered to share 10% of the spoils with Persia for this help. Persia stated a preference for grassland and/or cities, but to avoid the mandatory 20-email negotiations required to do anything with Babylon, I let ST decide how to make the split. Twenty emails later, ST had offered Persia a city on grass, on the condition that Persia could not defend it. This was (as usual) in the name of Babylonian security against her fearsome ally, Persia. Persia refused and had to accept 2 farmers instead (minus some gold).

Sinbad, it is true my answers are longer than your original history, but once you make a brief report it must include inacuracies and may cause people make wrong conclusions.
BTW I must appreciate you say the truth, like you admitted Babylon claimed no squares between Bab and Pers cities.

The corrections:
Yes, Sinbad told he would agree on a 10% portion in any form, but simultaneously I admitted Persia has right to 10% of real land and not a substitute. We agreed 10% was equal to land for 2 cities. But I told Persian cities in Mesopotamia would be very disagreable for Babylon (because of safety in a far future) and I would be afraid to develop the CA trade too much. And Sinbad didn't want to limit the trade.
We tried to find a way so that both sides are satisfied at maximum, I proposed 2 undefended cities on Al-Kabir/Tigris, 2 cities anywhere in Babylon that are green but work for Persia, farmers periodically sent to Persia, but Sinbad wanted only cities (with full rights).
In one stage of negotiations Sinbad told he estimated the value of a land for one city is 50g and I accepted it without any haggling and offered 2*50g.
Finally 100g were comprised in spoils (along with 1.7 (?) farmers for city production, and Sinbad wanted also value of plundered techs and gold were included). After conversion total goods sent to Persia were 2 farmers + some small gold.

So for land spoils Persia got the money she asked. And she could choose real land in Mesopotamia in place of it.

edit: spelling

[Zedd]

Immo you are indeed long-winded!

Again the main issue comes down to...Do you trust your allies? I have had many Egyptian, Hittite, and Greek units wonder through the seas and pass close to our cities. However rather than sound alarm or even quietly man defensive positions Our people have waived and offered greetings and well wishes.
Perhaps Immo would see this as foolish but I feel pride in my friendships and look forward to their longevity.

I do not blame Babylon for being wary, it is their right. And I support their need for security. However you must change your assumptions from those of negativity viewing those you wish to befriend as scoundrels, and accept that with risk comes reward.

Paranoid: Having Delusions of Persecution.

Delusions: A false belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that persists despite the facts, and is not considered tenable by one's associates.

I do not think this is the case with babylon but she seems to be approaching quickly.

[SlowThinker]

Dear Lycastus, it is interesting what a good propaganda contrives. Many words about paranoia from Egyptian and Persian mouths ... and it works!

I think you have exchanged Babylonian maps several times. Did you see ANY Babylonian unit guarding/scouting the area between Babylon and Persia anytime from end of The War up to now?
Only now I moved a first unit (skirmisher) in between Arraphka and Susa and it came to reveal a black part of the map only. This skirm is very far and absolutely out of striking distance from any Persian city and still Sinbad's first reaction was: 'Also, what is your skirmisher doing in Persia, at (135,43)? It must leave!'
(BTW the skirm is closer to Arraphka than to Susa).

Conversely Persia had a skirmisher on Al Kabir several turns and I didn't protest. (If there were strong units behind this skirmisher they could potentially destroy everything up to Hekallush.)
And now I see there is a Persian guard in every area between Persia and Babylon that is visible to me.

[SlowThinker]

Peaster, an e-mail to you was bounced. I tried to inform you by a PM but your box is full.

[Zedd]

I do not think this is the case with babylon but she seems to be approaching quickly.

Fear not by friend, I have not jumped on the wagon.

I do not blame Babylon for being wary, it is their right. And I support their need for security.

But I had to throw in my 2 cents.

However you must change your assumptions from those of negativity viewing those you wish to befriend as scoundrels, and accept that with risk comes reward.

The long-winded remark was in reguards to the 4 continuous ST posts

[Peaster]

The latest Bab posts seem to be corrections of corrections of corrections, so this may a good time to just stop the cycle. I am not too optimistic about the border talks, but I answered ST's email. The talks have a better chance there than in this thread. But for the record, my main points are

* Land north of the Zagros mts is Persian and is not negotiable.
* The region between Kyroushata and Tushpa (eg between the lakes) is also Persian. IMO the blue line in post 2863 is about right, but it is negotiable. [my original post said "green line"]
* Persia can make fair deals to increase Bab security, but I see no reason for Persia to sacrifice for it.

[Zedd]

I did it again! Forgot my turn was up and I am at the limit. Peaster has reminded me (Thank you) and I will play but won't be able to post until late 7-27-06.

Please once again forgive the Sloth, It seems like I just played yesterday.

[SlowThinker]

I considered Sinbad's arguments so inconsistent that until now I was able to realize only one rational explanation of Persian behaviour: she plans to attack BabylonI considered Sinbad's arguments so inconsistent that until now I was able to realize only one rational explanation of Persian behaviour: she plans to attack Babylon (sooner or later).
Now I think there is another possible explanation: Sinbad is absolutely unable to get a detached point of view. But still it is hard for me to grasp it.

If Persia asks to change existing borders near Ecbatana then this is in order. If Babylon refuses it then this is a fewerish non-negotiable demand.
Land near Babylonian cities is claimed by Persia (but Persia is willing to make deals about it). Land near Persian cities is Persian and this is not negotiable.
Persia has many units between Persian and Bab cities. Babylon sent only one skirmisher to reveal a black area. So The Immortal is paranoid...

Persia and Babylon are debating trade/security issues now.

[Zedd]

Minoa is prospering and the growth of our people is heartening to us. More caravans will be heading out very soon and some exciting city site development plans are under way.

[SlowThinker]

Straybow II, Thimmo and Babylonian translators explained their words mutually.
And we want to add for our ally Straybow: we didn't say that Persia wants to attack Babylon, but that it was only rational explanation. There are also non-rational explanations, like Persia fears to be a puppet or has problems with a detached point of view.

[Peaster]

Not sure why the Fearful King of BabbleOn insists on negotiating borders in this thread. He hurls insults by email as well, and I can read them all there. IMO it is very clear who has been more unreasonable. But if any Western King feels Persia is to blame for this mess, I would like to hear about it. Otherwise, I do not intend a line-by-line rebuttal of his nonsense.

A little digging around in the Great Library produced this ancient map, showing the Assyrian border with Persia in approx 3000BC (it bore the strange mark "2003"). IIRC these borders did not change significantly until the Great War. Persian troops invaded, took positions across the border, and captured the Assyrian city of Tushpa. Didanu / Zedanu didn't invade Persia in the war.

BabbleOn disputes Persian land as far as 4 squares north of the border. The Persian proposal includes land 1-2 squares south of it. We offered to treat about half of the new land as a DMZ (assuming the rest of our talks proceed rationally, which does not seem too likely anymore).

[Straybow]

Hatte building programs continue. Trade with Egypt and Minoa have been very profitable. In all this uproar our vizier almost forgot: according to StUPID, all who desire it will be sent a team to train their military in Leadership.

[Straybow]

StUPID barters

Get 'em while they're hot!

[SlowThinker]

>Not sure why the Fearful King of BabbleOn insists on negotiating borders in this thread.

Indeed there are some communication problems betwen us. I initiated a debate by e-mail, then I got your message and answered it. Do you receive all messages from Babylon? It was:
Subject: Re: Fw: what next Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 15:03:11 +0200
But I can negotiate anywhere.

>He hurls insults by email as well...

I don't know what you are talking about. If you feel insulted then please express concrete complaints here or privately and I will answer.
Now my concrete complaint is: could you not distort a name of glorious Babylon?

>But if any Western King feels Persia is to blame for this mess, I would like to hear about it.

I second this. I answered only about half of inexactitudes of Sinbad, so people may be confused.

BTW, why Western Kings only? Pitiable Ramses . Is he Mr. Nobody for you? Or does he accept anything?


The old map
Of course if there are clear borders of former Assyria then situation is easy. In such situation we should only get an agreement what part of Assyria should belong to Tushpa (and so be Persian).
Why is the map so narrow? Did you accept the lines go straigt west?

>BabbleOn disputes Persian land as far as 4 squares north of the border.

Maybe you should read Babylonian messages more carefully. I answered this complaint several times, here and also privately.
Again: If Persia claims land 2-4 squares from Babylonian cities then Babylon questions full ownership of such squares near Persian cities too.
But now I don't question the old borders. So only problem is in the western part. But from your last email it looks we can agree: you ask a majority of squares of upper Al Kabir, I answered that I can accept 3 of 7 for Babylon (the nearest city from these 3 ones is Nimrud (by both air and move)).

[Straybow]

A reminder: to keep the gods and chariot-makers appeased toward your civ, your civ must not research 18' Pike. The ritual oblutions and advanced Pike techniques are free provided the receiver agree (in his own interest) to ban research on 18' Pike.

Our words are not backed with "nuclear weapons" (whatever that mysterious power may be). This is a gentlemen's agreement among monarchs.

Edit: spelling doofus