New "Ancient Empires" PBEM created

[Kull]

We wonder why Babylon continues to move it's forces ever closer to Tell Hariri?

[Kull]

Trade with Egypt's friends continues unabated.

[Straybow]

Perhaps the King of Babylon fears Pharaoh intends to found a city east of Tell Hariri. Occupying the ford prevents that.

It is sound strategy, but is it sound politics?

[SlowThinker]

Our scouts found an Egyptian farmer south from Zibbar and west from Lagash. It looks this is the original Babylonian farmer donated to Egypt in the beginning of the Great War. And it looks the farmer spurned to return to Egypt by Babylonian boat and prefers to travel by desert. It would be good if Egypt could announce a destination of the trip so that Babylon can free the road.

Originally posted by Pharaoh
We wonder why Babylon continues to move it's forces ever closer to Tell Hariri?

For now let us accept a skirmisher is a 'force'... Anyway we wonder Egypt wonders a Babylonian skirmisher is 2-turn trip from Tell Hariri and simultaneously Egypt stays calm if her C1 stays at striking distance from Dibshiya several turns (and we don't mention other Egyptian units that were positioned near Babylonian cities in past).

Originally posted by Straybow II
Perhaps the King of Babylon fears Pharaoh intends to found a city east of Tell Hariri. Occupying the ford prevents that.
It is sound strategy, but is it sound politics?

Do you think Egypt might want to make the situation even more tense by founding a city in a disputed area?? That idea never entered my head.
But I am thinking ... maybe my diplomats had this in mind when they sent the question about the road eastward from Tell Hariri ...

[Kull]

Originally posted by Straybow
Perhaps the King of Babylon fears Pharaoh intends to found a city east of Tell Hariri. Occupying the ford prevents that.

It is sound strategy, but is it sound politics?

Pharoah can assure his Hittite brother that such is not our intent, and never has been. But it is time to end this ludicrous charade between Babylon and Egypt. We desire only to conduct business with our friends and to sever ALL ties with the Evil Empire to the East. Accordingly, since both Egypt and Babylon accepted the borders as proposed by Minos in his third attempt at compromise (see map below), Egypt hereby announces that they shall take effect - and be enforced - in twenty years (that is, two more turns each by Babylon and Egypt)

The areas within the yellow lines are Egyptian, and not subject to any infringement by Babylon. Likewise, those within the green lines are Babylonian, and Egypt shall not trespass there. The red hatched zone is demilitarized, and we pledge not to enter it and ask similar courtesy from Babylon. If he is willing, Minos may patrol this region with 4 horsemen (2 from each side) to ensure it remains sacrosanct. High powered Minoan units in this region are not needed, as he should never be placed in the role of treaty enforcer, but rather should serve as observer.

As to other portions of the map, Egypt pledges not to wander within 5 squares of known Babylonian cities, and asks a similar courtesy in return. There is no need for "rose zones" or any other reporting or unit limitation that infringes on Egyptian and Babylonian sovereignty. We seek only clear and verifiable separation - and enough of it to ensure security. If Babylon truly seeks "security", here it is. But we suspect that is not their desire - and never has been.

Babylon can accept or reject these terms, but rest assured that Egypt will implement these borders in two more turns.

[Kull]

(Deleted incorrect map)

[Kull]

Revised to fix errors in original Minos map:

[Peaster]

Persian cartographers in Rhagae admire the map-making skills of the advanced nations. Then they join a few idle merchants over some excellent foreign beer. There are rumors that the Great Sinbad has built another village in the north, and commissioned a mysterious Persian Wonder, which will certainly be unique in all the World.

The Argonaut Society was delighted that Sinbad sent a trunk of gold to Athens, until news arrived that bandits intercepted it somewhere in the wastelands of the Kur. Another shipment has been sent, with apologies to King Agamemnon.

[SlowThinker]

Originally posted by Egypt
borders ... Egypt hereby announces that they shall take effect - and be enforced - in twenty years
...
Babylon can accept or reject these terms, but rest assured that Egypt will implement these borders in two more turns.

It looks Egypt threatens to use a force? Or are we mistaken? Can Egypt be more clear?
It would be very interesting that Egypt suddenly lost her fear of Babylon.

since both Egypt and Babylon accepted the borders as proposed by Minos in his third attempt at compromise (see map below)

It is pleasant that Pharaoh doesn't remember his own acceptances (for example that Egypt agrees with 2 purple C4s enforcing the zones, or that Egypt won't expand downstream Euphrat) and simultaneously remembers acceptances of Babylon. But his memory is very weak:

Originally posted by Babylon
Also Babylon accepts the zone lines (we suppose the rose line is 2 squares from the red line).

We said we considered the Minoan map unfair but simultaneously we said we would accept (almost) any shape of zones if the agreement would bring safety for Babylon. Otherwise the loss of territory is not covetable for Babylon.

Area of Dibshiya-Tell Hariri

High powered Minoan units in this region are not needed, as he should never be placed in the role of treaty enforcer, but rather should serve as observer.

There are about 3 possible roles of Minos:
A) a treaty enforcer (Minoan C4s)
B) a bearer of a warning system (no C4s)
C) an observer that will report an attack

Point C) has no value for Babylon.
Babylon prefers A), but we won't say this solution must be 'enforced' because Egypt accepted it in past. We are ready to search for a substitute solution:
This solution could be point B): if zones are wide and there is enough of Minoan units then a surprise attack will be impossible even without C4s.

Desert

We somewhat cannot grasp that a civ that intents 'sever ALL ties with the Evil Empire to the East' needs units in desert 6 squares from Babylonian cities.
We ask a 12-square area around existing peripheral Babylonian cities (Zibbar, Lagash, Uruk, Eridu; except squares that are closer to Tell Hariri than Zibbar) that will be free of Egyptian units.
We can talk about this requirement if Egypt explains what kind of Egyptian need is more important than need for security of Babylonian cities. So far Egypt is silent about this point so we suppose the need is somewhat dubious.

[Kull]

There is nothing to discuss. If Babylon truly desires security, here it is. Stay in the indicated zones and we shall stay in ours and Babylon has nothing to fear.

But of course, Peace with Egypt has never been the intention of Babylon's foreign policy. Of our two nations, only Babylon has consistently threatened the other with attack. Only Babylon continues to push their units into territory that even THEY agree is Egyptian. In two turns we shall see who desires peace and who is the aggressor that seeks war.

It is most distressing to Pharoah that his Brothers seem indifferent to his fate. We have promised not to attack Babylon, they have NOT reciprocated (quite the reverse), and yet our friends seem to see no problem here. A stiff word or two directed toward Babylon will likely prove most beneficial in ameliorating their behaviour.

[SlowThinker]

Babylon greets Mr. crocodile and his tears.

We have promised not to attack Babylon, they have NOT reciprocated (quite the reverse)
...
If Babylon truly desires security, here it is. Stay in the indicated zones and we shall stay in ours and Babylon has nothing to fear.

Do you think Babylon is so foolish that she would base her security on trust to any Egyptian promise? After the experience with violation the no-scouting promise? After Egyptian refusal of any efective zones?
We don't know in what way Egypt wants to cancel the current relatively tranquil situation in the area during next 20 years, but Egypt is mistaken if she believes her words will cause we will behave like a pork in abattoir. We WILL defend if Egypt threatens our security. So if Egypt wants war she has a very good way how to start it.

[SlowThinker]

Since Egypt has problems to decipher words from Babylon we will send some simple and clear questions again:

1) What Babylonian units are in territory that Babylon agreed it was Egyptian? Please add the words which granted the territory to Egypt.

2)

borders ... Egypt hereby announces that they shall take effect - and be enforced - in twenty years
...
Babylon can accept or reject these terms, but rest assured that Egypt will implement these borders in two more turns.

Is this a threat to use a force?

3) Could Egypt send quotations that would document 'Babylon has consistently threatened the other with attack'?

4) Why Egypt refuses wide zones with effective rules? Especially if Egypt is afraid of Babylon and she claims her aim 'constitutes no greed for land'?

5) Why Egypt builds a road East from Tell Hariri? Why Egypt doesn't want the road between Tell Hariri and Dibshiya is dismantled? Why an Egyptian C1 stands on a road that is marked as Babylonian territory even on Egyptian maps and hinders the road is dismantled?

6) Why Egypt needs units in desert 6 squares from Babylonian cities?

7) Why Egypt refused to inform us about Egyptian units in the eastern part of The Desert?

[Kull]

In two turns, Egyptian units will be on or within the Yellow line zones indicated on the Minoan Map. Babylon is requested to withdraw her units to the Green line zones. Elsewhere, the desert is free terrain except within 5 spaces of each others cities.

To ensure peace, Egypt would be willing to see a Babylonian map marking the 5 - even 6 - square distance out from the southern Mesopotamia region. Our units will stay outside of such a line. But "12"? Why not 50? How about 100? Because Babylon claims something, it does not make it hers. By accepting the Minoan Map, Egypt has already granted Babylon more territory than it's conduct deserves.

Egypt looks forward to the day when Babylon's other neighbors likewise tire of her conduct.

[Kull]

(Pharoah Mode Off)

I was writing this in an email to another player and felt that perhaps it was worth mentioning to everyone else. You guys may not understand this, but 50% of the fun for me in Civ2 is peeling back the Black Hidden Areas. I don't do anything with the information, but I just love to explore. If everybody perceives some kind of aggression in this activity - despite ALL my attempts to moderate peace throughout the many REAL years that this game has lasted - then PLEASE gang up and destroy my civ so I can move on to something else.

(Pharoah Mode On)

[SlowThinker]

As usual, we answer all Egyptian points. But 7 questions for Egypt are still waiting for answers.

We don't claim 12 squares, but we state we won't accept any security agreement unless some conditions are fulfilled. The conditions include 12 squares but can be changed if Egypt explains what kind of Egyptian need in The Desert is more important than the need for security of Babylonian cities.
Why 12 squares and not 50? A security area 12 squares wide grants to Babylon 3 turns in which we have a chance to detect an army of attackers and to try to destroy or weaken it before it hits our cities. 16 squares would be better but we are trying to be minimalistic.

Babylon won't withdraw her units from the current positions unless satisfactory security measures are accepted (they are explained above in parts 'Area of Dibshiya-Tell Hariri' and 'Desert').

We consider the current situation (the 20-year undefined threat) very serious and our units were placed on maximum alert. We hope Egypt will answer the 7 questions soon. We are also looking forward that Slave Labor System will be finished in Egypt. That would explain how Egypt spent her 600g last turn. A decision to spend another 300 shields into Egyptian economy could signify Egypt might abandon her militaristic ideas.