New "Ancient Empires" PBEM created

[Peaster]

The square 133,45 is the southern tip of the Tushpa line claimed by Persia about 150 years ago. Long ago there was a Bab city about 3 squares to the south, which ST disbanded. By agreement, any newer cities in the area are irrelevant.

The Bab skirmisher has been over the border for quite some time. It is not especially threatening, which is why I haven't made a very big fuss over it. But it creates problems for Persian troop movement, and makes our defense of the Zagros awkward. It is part of the reason Persia built a road and a fort, and sent an envoy out instead of a skirmisher. It will have to leave eventually.

[Straybow]

Clever, but it is a bit like eating your cake and claiming his as well. I don't want to see this descend into rules-lawyering like a certain other SoG PBeM game...

Conquered Arrapkha was handed over by agreement. By the rules a "uncontested or friendly conquest" is not permitted. Bribing costs an Envoy and would still force Bab to take a tech Bab didn't want (BrWeap). Disbanding the city proper was the instrument of transfer agreed on by both sides

Therefore, the replacement city should count as the original city in border talks. Or the original city site, in the case of Nimrud which was not rebuilt.

[Peaster]

Straybow - Arrapkha and Nimrud were considered legitimate factors in border talks. I was just saying that new cities were not. Both sides can build new cities near the border, but should not then complain about their security.

Our border talks have been over for a long time [except possibly for a few squares]. ST refused many chances to negotiate the border. He's made various legalistic claims to the land, and many silly accusations, which simply do not hold water. Now he is trying to bully Persia into backing down. And still spreading propaganda. I certainly don't find that pleasant either, but am mostly ignoring it. If you are blaming me for "rules-lawyering", I am just baffled - maybe you should explain.

IIRC you considered the Persian claim reasonable 150 years ago and Pharoah backed it strongly. No King besides Babylon objected then, or since then. Facing a large hostile neighbor, Persia needed a definite border, and committed to defending this one at considerable cost. We won't retreat now, just because ST calls us names, or whines about Bab security - and at the same time threatens to invade us!

[Straybow]

When I mentioned rules-lawyering in the other game it is an example of how player interaction spoils the game. I've chided Slo many times about making mountains out of anthills, to the point I've given up.

In game, Bab wants access to the iron and placed a Skirm on it ages ago. It could very easily be removed by Persia should hostilities commence. There had been no troop build-up, no road built from the Bab side, no fortress, no stacking.

If Persia makes that a point of contention and turns it into a Zagros arms race it is a decision made by Persia, not an action forced by Bab. I've explained why I consider the Persian road an unwarranted escalation.

The situation is reversed in the east, where the Zagros are the back yard of the Persian homeland and Objective City (even if the Palace is moved elsewhere).

In between the two I neither supported nor refuted the Tushpa Line. To my eye, the SE end of the line is the question. It is perhaps not wise to lay claim to hills on the far side of the mountains as Persian territory.

[SlowThinker]

Only now I realized Sat is after my deadline. I should be home Fri late evening and will try to play all my turn, but please wait if I won't catch it.

[SlowThinker]

Bab 2410

Thank you for your patience.
A text will come later (no text for Egypt).

[SlowThinker]

Bab 2410 report

Trade goes well in Babylon.

Citizens of Eshunna will return from The Caspic to Babylon. Still a Persian ship is homed in Eshunna, we suppose Persia has a plan how to rehome it.

After Persian whinning about recent Babylonian "invasion", our State Department ordered a study at Department of History. After examining the result ...



...we expelled the Persian envoy without any hesitation. There are also 5 illegal Persian stacks and one fort in disputed/unresolved areas, and we would like they expel themselves. (We also noticed a Persian farmer on Upper Al-Kabir. We must remind to Persia that ownership of this territory is not resolved yet.)

By a request of King Straybow (who reported problems with runners) we sent a list of unanswered messages by a runner called "Apolyton PeeEm".

[Kull]

Babylon is instructed to remove it's skirmishers that have locked our Egyptian skirmisher into a no-move position. If they do not allow our passage back into the desert next turn, we will not be held accountable for what happens next.

This is a deliberate provocation aimed at a unit that is FAR from any border, and is consistent with Babylon's never ending aggressive attitude toward her neighbors.

[Kull]

A blessed day dawns in the City of Amarna as the great new Temple of the Oracle is unveiled for all to see. Pharoah has an audience with the Great Seer, and is seen leaving with a troubled countenance.

Elsewhere, trade and building continue apace.

[SlowThinker]

to Egypt

Babylon is instructed to remove it's skirmishers that have locked our Egyptian skirmisher into a no-move position. If they do not allow our passage back into the desert next turn, we will not be held accountable for what happens next.

The currently blocked skirmisher deliberately trampled patches of Agade for four turns (and locked citizens and troops of the city into a no-move position), and "aggressive" Babylon didn't threat, but asked patiently and repeatedly that the Egyptian skirmisher retreated.
Now "peaceful" Egypt threats war after her skirmisher gets blocked for one turn?

It wasn't our intention to block your skirmisher (the eastern Bab skirm simply went too much west), but you don't have any right to 'instruct' our troops where they shall camp. You know well that Gods established ZOCs and your units may get blocked (especially if they don't stay in open areas).

Now we will forget the Egyptian harsh words and we will await a more polite Egyptian request.

[SlowThinker]

reaction to the debate between Consul Straybow and King Sinbad

Originally posted by Sinbad
Our border talks have been over for a long time [except possibly for a few squares]. ST refused many chances to negotiate the border. He's made various legalistic claims to the land ...

This is another unashamed Persian lie:
We "negotiated" only until 2580, when Persia suddenly increased her claims by more than 10 squares and came with her Tushpa-line and declared our next talks should be only limited to small Persian concessions from this line.
Our Department of History is tired of digging old messages, but here are some:

Originally posted by Sinbad in 2540
Soon, Sinbad will say "We already know what is Persian, and do not need more talk".

and then

Originally posted by Sinbad
However, border negotiations seem to be stalled. Babylon asks Persia more and more questions, but has not clarified her own position. Sinbad has little patience left.

Babylonian questions remained fixed: we asked how Persia came to her Tushpa-line from our agreement that borders should be based on cities that existed just after The War, and why the T-line was so close to Bab cities (see a picture), but we never got any meaningful answer.

[edit: history after 2540]
2530 Babylon comes with the "minimal land" announcement
no Persian reaction
2530 Thimmo: 'I published the 'minimal land' and I am awaiting your response.'
no Persian response for 4 cycles. Only after 4 cycles it was clear Persia definitely considered talks to be closed:
2490 Sinbad: 'A few Bab skirmishers have wandered over the border. They are not really causing much trouble, but our gnomes don't seem to like it.'
[/edit]


The light blue line is the Tushpa line:

[Kull]

Re: to Egypt

Originally posted by SlowThinker

The currently blocked skirmisher deliberately trampled patches of Agade for four turns (and locked citizens and troops of the city into a no-move position), and "aggressive" Babylon didn't threat, but asked patiently and repeatedly that the Egyptian skirmisher retreated.
Now "peaceful" Egypt threats war after her skirmisher gets blocked for one turn?

It wasn't our intention to block your skirmisher (the eastern Bab skirm simply went too much west), but you don't have any right to 'instruct' our troops where they shall camp. You know well that Gods established ZOCs and your units may get blocked (especially if they don't stay in open areas).

Now we will forget the Egyptian harsh words and we will await a more polite Egyptian request.

More lies from Babylon. The skirmisher appeared near Agade because we didn't know it was there. We asked permission to view it, and this was denied. We then turned and left the area and have been moving AWAY from the city ever since, every turn. But this is not good enough for Babylon. She must harrass Egypt every step of the way. And now we are blocked and unable to move. And The Great Spider of Babylon, who micromanages the flight of every sparrow unfortunate enough to enter his realm now tells us this was an "accident"? Save your fairy stories for the children. Here is a request with all the politeness your deliberate affront deserves:

GET OUT OF OUR WAY!

[SlowThinker]

More lies from Babylon. The skirmisher appeared near Agade because we didn't know it was there. We asked permission to view it, and this was denied. We then turned and left the area and have been moving AWAY from the city ever since, every turn.

Could Egypt lie some more clever way?
You stayed at Agade so long because you hoped to start a conflict, but Babylon was patient. Now you think you have another chance But we will obey and get out of your way ...

[Peaster]

Sinbad sends Persian congratulations to Pharoah for building the Oracle, with our wishes for better omens in 2400BC.

Our King was furious over Babylon's treatment of our envoy. He sent a second envoy to accept pleas for asylum from the Babylonian geezers on the Spine. But Persian attorneys persuaded him to wait, and notify Babylon first, though surely Babylon has done nothing to deserve such kindness. If Babylon prefers to remove the geezers willingly, Persia is ready to cooperate.

We are a little confused over some strange recent posts, but they do not seem worth arguing about.

[Straybow]

Mitanni have built a city!