Cross and Crscent Strategy

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by BeBro
LOTM, I did not notice this post earlier, it contains a lot of useful feedback for me. I´m currently a bit busy with my real life, but I´ll give you a more detailed answer in the next days.

For now only one question: is C&C one of the scns you converted to Civ2 ToT?

Yes - it works just fine in TOT - unlike the scens of certain other well-known deigners :0

[BeBMan]

Ok, here a better answer...

Originally posted by lord of the mark
im on my 3rd try on this scen (amazing to find a scen that keeps me that hooked!)

First 2 times as HRE, now as England.

First time tried to use units to keep english and french off my cities, wasted shields, got behind.

Second time went to war early against english, then french. Pushed English off continent, but wasted units in amateurish assault on Rheims. Pushed to east, but then ended up in war with byzantines, bogged down.

I (as HRE) placed some cheap units between my western cities to block the French (they don´t attack). The English need some more attention, since they will attack sooner or later. I stayed defensive against them until I had Knights, then I took their continental cities ASAP.

As english pursued more peaceful trade strat, using easy intercontinental (I presume thats what is meant by 2 continent above) trade. Took Baltic region and began expansion south and east into russia. Founded city in Sardinia. kept out of central med by byzantine dromons, so launched "crusade" against moors - have taken ceuta and cartagena.

I would do the same, perhaps without settling in the Baltic region, but taking as much as possible of Spain earlier. The Moors are not a big challenge, you can capture a lot of their cities without siege engines, if you "invest" enough Knights (or better Hospitalers).
It was my goal to "drive" the player against the Moors (quite accurate, since Frankish and sometimes also English knights took part in the reconquista).

About the Byzantine fleet: A bit too strong IMO in V1.0, sometimes they "cover" large parts of the Mediterranean Sea with Dromones/Galleys. I tried to avoid clashes by taking the Byzantine empire (at least to Constantinople) with land forces (as HRE), or (as French) attacked Northern Africa to have some bases to invade the Holy Land from there.

Im still refining strat on this. Clearly Dukedom, Barter, Kingdom are key techs at beginning - im still unsure about later - push for happiness wonder, empire, or go early for attack units? Also i think its probably better (as english) to land carvans quickly and send them to France/Germany/Spain versus the trouble to send them all the way to med, at least until have better naval units. Maybe that should be priority.

Usually, I race to the big siege engines after I can build knights and have the techs you mentionend above. Meanwhile I take Spain (even as HRE - since there are objective cities). When I have the siege engines I attack Byzantine and/or Egypt and the Middle East. I always concentrate on the objectve cities first, which means that I hardly conquer the other big European powers completely. But I don´t consider myself a very good player, maybe others have no problem to take Europe and still reach all objectives.

Note on map. In earlier post i said i thought the map was accurate. At that point I had only seen Germany, Italy, France (foreshortened Brittany didnt bother me) Of course Mideast, etc is not realistic and a new version with more realistic map is welcomed. nonetheless at a macro level the map supports historical accuracy well - Germans must expand to east, confront Byzantines in Italy - French can use their med coast to advance in Med, or push out on land. English are natural mariners/traders, but have difficulty accessing med. Can expand/exploit Baltic.

The "macro level" of realism you mentioned was a very important goal for me, I ´m really satisfied with it. However, the map itself has indeed a lot of weaknesses. The new version comes with a modified map from Imperium Romanum (less space in the east, but slightly more in the north). Expansion for the HRE in Eastern Europe will be a bit different, there are more cities in todays Poland and the Balkan etc. When you start in 955 you have to defend very well, but then (with better units) expansion should be no problem in the 11th century.

The English will have it a bit easier, because the new map contains more of Britain incl. Ireland, so you can found some new cities there.

Oh, and perhaps I´ll make also a special ToT version of the new scn version, then I would come back to you to share some experiences...

[lord of the mark]

well ive finally beaten this scen (just about)

Played as French - easier, due to their strong power start, and their starting research of dukedom. lack of open land for expansion is not a handicap, i begin to think that is a waste of resources in this scen.

First took "norman" cities, filled out and built up French cities, advanced up tech tree, maintained defense in Pyrenees after losing Barcelona to Moors. Delivered land merchants to HRE cities until got Christian seafaring, then sent merchants to england. when got good city buster units, advanced against Moors (after chess game in Pyrenees) and against nearby HRE cities - went for big Rhineland cities, Worms and Aachen, and deep into Spain. Also Calais. Treasuries at Aachen, then Cordoba, gave me infusions of cash, also takig "jihad" which let me sell "tournaments". Built adam smith equivalent.

At this point have Iberia, Rhineland, far along tech tree, lots of cash. Proceeded to take rest of HRE, push against Moors in Sicily and North Africa. Germany was difficult to take, but Italy was easy (one siege tower wandering across the Alps took Venice, from there conquered remaining HRE cities in Italy)

Soon had eliminated Moors and HRE. Went for Byzantines. took south italian cities relatively easily.
At first difficult struggle in front of Phillipoppel (sp?) went that went the rest was easy. Advanced slowly but steadily through balkans, used Italian force in Greece. Took Constantinople.

Built up Channel coast in preparation for " the enterprise of England" .


Its now 1224. Have conquered all England, have over half of Asia Minor. 30 of 32 objective cities. Only 2 left are former Seljuk (now Byz) cities. Have maintained peace with Saracens (who seem to have no objective cities) If i manage to take last to obj cities soon, may attack saracens as well, go fot complete conquest.

At this point Im past the realistic part, into the late game bigger is better conquest machine. Id quit, but after 4 games id like to play through to the end.

While there are defininetly improvements that could be made, all of which Bebrosing is already aware of as far as i can tell, this is still one of the best scens I've played.

LOTM

[lord of the mark]

Finally beat the scenario in 1235. Thats 11 turns to take last two objective cities, during which time i took several other Byzantine cities, on the way and on the flanks, and also took 6 Saracen cities for good measure.

Definitely an interesting and challenging scenario, but a more realistic version should make it more difficult for Western Christians to get good govt types.

LOTM