Cross and Crscent Strategy

[Cal]

Every old strategy deserves one good *bump*.

[Cal]

Ok, I've beat this scenario now. Playing as the Germans, I've completely conquered the Byzantine Empire, carved up almost all of the middle east, overrun north arfica, and accomplished an invasion across the english channel, taking Canterbury and London. I still have a cease fire agreement with the franks and the umaiyad's.

Here's how...

I basically followed the steps already here in the first part... founding new cities, connecting them, researching the techs in Xin's order, and keeping AI civs from penetrating my territory with hundreds of units. You want to take every Barbarian city you can once you get longbowmen, especially the ones east of the alps, between your open territory and the outskirts of the Byzantine Empire.

I built hulks in Rome and cities founded on Italy's east coast, filled them with the left over units from the barbarian cities conquest (one such city is right across the sea from Italy's east coast). I was able to conquer the first few Sarazenic cities in North Africa. It was around this time the Byzantine Empire sneak attacked me, luckily I had my game saved a while back so I reloaded and sneak attacked THEM first, doing this I was able to take Tarent since they were blocking my hulks from passing between around Greece and Rome. I conquered the rest of Italy's pennisula relatively easily, the Byzantines were moving so many of their units around surrounding my roman cities that they had at most, two weak defenders in each city which were easily beaten with two veteran longbowmen, and then a third unit to take the city, as they rarely, if ever counterattacked with anything but their navy.
...This turned out to be true for almost every Byzantine city, after many long battles, and several amphibious assaults on greece, every city was captured.
Meanwhile, by still shipping more units to the middle east and North Africa, I was able to take most cities with just veteran longbowmen and swordsmen. I ignored Cairo, conquered Alexandria regardless of that it cost money, and kept pushing along the coast until the middle east was reached, where I began pushing inward... Meanwhile, I was almost ready to get units directly to the middle east by passing through conquered Turkey.
After researching Xin's techs, I went after the 'Teutonic Order' tech and then Mobile Seige Engines, which came in handy while conquering Baghdad.
About halfway through, the English declared war, but they hadn't upgraded their units from Armored Cavalry and Spearmen, Calais and all other founded cities were easily taken, and once I secured a significant area of the middle east, I sent hunks full of teutonic knights up to England proper, took canterbury, then London, which also hadn't upgraded from building spearmen as their prime defensive line.
It's not even past 1100 A.D. yet, but I already have a decisive victory.

What a great scenario...

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The strategically impaired,
-Cal
[This message has been edited by Cal (edited February 28, 2001).]

[Masis]

Sounds like and interesting scenario.
Could someone send me a bmp or gif image using the 'PrintScreen' button of the zoomed out image of the game map as I would like to know the positions of the civs. Judging that this scenario is post-Civ II original it is unlikely that I could play it with my old program.
Reason why I want to see it?
Well, I like Roman history (including the 'byzantine' era) and the description of the Romans ('byzantines') being in northen Italy intrigues me as the only time that happened was from 545 AD to 565 AD, after that the Lombards kicked them out-Lombards fall to Franks 9th century AD.
Romans ('byzantines') left with foot holds in extreme south of Italy like Messina, Crontona and Taranto.
Thats why it interests me to see the game map of this scenario-to send-e-mail Khatchik@cwcom.net

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MRP

[Cal]

The byzantines just try to crowd a lot of units through your territory in Italy... from the north and south. And I believe there are some pictures on BeBro's page.

[BeBMan]

Masis, the scenario and some screenshots are available here:

http://home.debitel.net/user/bbrosin...ssCrescent.htm

[Masis]

Thanks Cal and BreBro for the information...saw the site and screen shots.
The west european part of the scenario looks accurate, but when I looked at the one of eastern europe and west middle east, a lot of the cities were inaccurately placed, like Athens, Antioch, Konstantinople.
How do I know?
Well I am making a scenario about the First Crusade and I have spent most of the time checking to see if I am placing the cities correctly by reffering to maps either on-line or at home-it makes a big difference when it comes to playing.
But that aside the scenario looks really interesting and should be released as a game in its own right.
How is the Title gifs made?

And now the words that started the Crusades in the first place...

"For you must hasten to carry aid to your brethren dwelling in the East,
who need your help for which they have oftern entreated.

For the Turks, an eastern people, have attacked them, as many of you already know, and have advanced as far into Roman territory as that part of the Mediterranean which is called the Arm of Saint George. They have seized
more and more of the lands of the Christians, have already defeated them
in seven times as many battles, killed or captured many people, have destroyed churches, and have devastated the kingdom of God. If you allow them to continue much longer they will conquer God's faithful people much more extensively.

Wherefore with earnest prayer I, not I, but God exhorts you as heralds of Christ to repeatedly urge men of all ranks whatsoever, knights as well as foot-soldiers, rich and poor, to hasten to exterminate this vile race from our lands and to aid the Christian inhabitants in time.

I address those present; I proclaim it to those absent; moreover Christ commands it.
For all those going thither there will be remission of sins if they come to the end of this fettered life while marching by land, crossing by sea or in fighting the pagans.
This I grant to all who go, through the power vested in me by God.

Oh what a disgrace if a race so despicable, degenerate, and enslaved by demons should thus overcome a people endowed with faith in Almighty God and resplendent in the name of Christ! Oh what reproaches will be charged against you by the Lord Himself if you have not helped those who are counted like yourselves of the Christian faith!

Let those...who are accustomed to wantonly wage private war against the faithful march upon the infidels in a war which should be begun now and be finished in victory. Let those who have long been robbers now be soldiers of Christ. Let those who once fought against brothers and relatives now rightfully fight against the barbarians. Let those who have been hirelings for a few pieces of silver now attain an eternal reward. Let those who have been exhausting themselves to the detriment of body and soul now labor for a double glory. Yea on the one hand will be the sad and the poor, on the other the joyous and the wealthy; here the enemies of the Lord, there His friends.

Let nothing delay those who are going to go. Let them settle their affairs, collect money, and when winter has ended and spring has come, zealously undertake the journey under the guidance of the Lord."

Fulcher of Chartres
A History of the Expedition to Jerusalem: 1095-1127,
Book I, Chapter III
translation: Frances Rita Ryan, 1969



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MRP

[Masis]

Well, I dowloaded the Cross and Crescent Scenario, looked forward to a complex historical and riveting strategy test simultaneously following in the footsteps of history...
The Graphics were dazzling, yet the Geography was lacking in deatails, for example the middle-east, which is understandable if the author does not know much about its region.
As a enthusiast for Roman (Byzantine) scenarios I was amazed that Athens had moved north of the gulf of Corinith, the absence of Thessalonika, that Phillipopolis is in Serbia and that Constantinople faces the Black Sea, when if you have the Sea of Marmara in your map it should face that sea instead, the dissapearance of the Taurus mountains, Damascus lying in lush Grasslands (it should be in sem-arid environment) that Cyrenaica is a few miles away from Crete, the lack of the lakes of Van, Sevan and Urmia.
The eastern civs were incorrect, a better name for the Saracens could be the break-away Emirate of the Tulunids, the Seljuks were not on the scene at 936 ad, the Abassids would be a better name for that civ and make more cities for them in the east.
Southern Italy needed some surgery and terrain development like roads and farms, which they had in those days surprise surprise.
Also changed the default name of the (Byzantine) Roman Emperor to Nikephorus who was the most famous Emperor of that era, Johannes Komnenus existed over 200 years later.
I wanted to fix these mistakes, but I thought the creator should do it, if I sent it to him he would get the credit for the re-working.

In summary,when making a scenario Graphics and fancy events are fine, but if the basics like Geography and near-perfect-Historical accuracy are ignored, then the scenario will flop in wider circles of players.

[BeBMan]

Masis, I agree that my scn has some weak points, especially in the fields of geography. The map isn´t the best and, related to that, also the city placement isn´t very accurate. But I think some of your statements are simply unfair:

quote: ...looked forward to a complex historical and riveting strategy test simultaneously following in the footsteps of history...

As said in the readme this scn wasn´t planned as a detailed crusade scn, more as a general overview over the development from the early middle ages to the high middle ages. I think its impossible to make an absolutely accurate scn with only one events file and the known limits of civ2.

quote: The eastern civs were incorrect, a better name for the Saracens could be the break-away Emirate of the Tulunids, the Seljuks were not on the scene at 936 ad, the Abassids would be a better name for that civ and make more cities for them in the east.

As said in the readme, I´m aware of that, but again, I think you misunderstood my intentions. I know that the civnames I´ve chosen are not correct for the start year (936AD). But remember that the scn runs over 300 years/turns so the civnames are of course a compromise between the civs that exist in 936AD and the civs of 1244AD. The same goes, btw, for the leader names, or do you think I don´t know that Friedrich I. Barbarossa hasn´t lived in 936AD? What would be better if I change him to Otto I. instead? Of course nothing, because one could criticise easily that Otto I. hasn´t lived 300 years...

quote: I wanted to fix these mistakes, but I thought the creator should do it, if I sent it to him he would get the credit for the re-working.

Feel free to change the things you don´t like. I also thought of a new, better version, but currently I have simply no time for that.

quote: In summary,when making a scenario Graphics and fancy events are fine, but if the basics like Geography and near-perfect-Historical accuracy are ignored, then the scenario will flop in wider circles of players.

The goal for Cross&Crescent was to make a scn that is simply fun to play. I´m aware that its not perfect, but according to the feedback I received it wasn´t a flop, and generally, I think that scenario making isn´t about breaking records, its about having fun.

[Masis]

Ok I admit that those comments were a tad rough-but I recieved a reply via e-mail to my Roman-'Byzantine' scenarios and was criticised for the lack of fancy graphics and events-due to the fact that those scenarios were made when I did not have a gif-editor program like Paint Shop Pro.
Those scenarios I made in terms of Geography and city allocation were near-perfect as you can get in Civ II.
He said that these scenarios will never compare to scenarios like Imperium Romanum, Red Front and so on...so I downloaded these sceanrios and found that although they have fancy graphics, they can not compare to the effort in historical accuracy or city allocation as the Civ II original-scenarios that I had made and modified.
Personally I find that 'fun' can be increased by complexity, if a scenario is simplified or even worse-dumbed down then for me that is not a fun scenario.
Yet we all have made simple scenarios-the simplest I made was one called Two Romes-which can be downloaded from here by clicking on the image.
Really I hate self acknowledgement, but even that simple scenario has got the cities in the right place and a firm base of historical reality within it.

The last post was written in response to the e-mail I got, though critiscism is good for progress-otherwise we may as well move to a non-democratic country and agree with each other when we may be doing wrong.



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MRP

[BeBMan]

So you criticise my scenarios and even Nemo´s RedFront because you´re upset about another civers opinion about your scns? Forgive me, but this is really weak...

I downloaded two of your scns, "Last Battle of Heraclius" and TwoRomes". I have two agree that your map and city placement is better. But, don´t you think that a good scn should have a bit more than accurate city locations? I mean in "Heraclius", except from geography, you haven´t changed much, the scn comes even without a rules file. Since one of the best things of Civ2 is, in my eyes, the possibility of changing nearly everything (and not only graphics, also events, labels, pedia) why don´t you take advantage of this to add more accuracy?

A word to "fancy graphics and events": why do you think I (as so many other scn creators) made these graphics and events? Simply to astonishing the player? No, good graphics and events are in fact a part of historical accuracy, they do not only create a better game atmosphere, they also can reflect (when wisely changed) historic circumstances. And especially the events can really increase the complexity of a scn, so I don´t understand that you haven´t included any, but complain about RedFront, a scn that has set new standards in that field...

I have no problems with criticism, when it comes in a fair and constructive way. But I think its not the best idea from you to say that your scns are nearly perfect in some fields, while others have nothing else than a good look.

[PolarisGL]

This is a forum for discussing and posting stategies for various scenarios, and not bashing them and their authors.

Please keep such arguing away from this forum.

Thank you.

-Polaris

[Masis]

This topic exists to demonstrate the Scenario 'Cross and Cresent'.
As I said twice, the current scenarios that I have made were made using Civ II original, so that is whay they lack things like events and fancy graphics.
Yet they have what Cross and Cresent does not have, which I find rather sad if the author has gone to a lot of trouble to include the extras.
This is not a 'Bash' if it appears to be so to you, then don't mislead yourself, my comments are a mature analysis of this scenario.
For example Civ II original sceanrios, provided they have good city allocation and geography accuracy (as near as possible with the limits of Civ II) they can be upgraded when installed into a Civ II that has FW upgrade, and a good editor facility like Paint Shop Pro.
The current scenarios I have made, will be upgraded soon, after I have finished a current scenario I am working on about the First Crusade-don't worry this is not some attempt to copy you, this idea was in my mind for ages, I had made a Crusade scenario years ago, but it was limited to the boudaries of Civ II original, now that I have the ability to use FW upgrade and Paint Shop Pro, this scenario will combine Historical accuracy, Geographical accuracy, Costume accuracy and Events accuracy as much as can be made within the limits of Civ II Original and FW.
Certainly the Cross and Cresent scenarios have potential-yet they also require work on the History and Geography side of it, the Graphics and events are perfect.
I have made some of those amendments to the scenario, I can send them to you to check out and tell me what you think.

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MRP

[Masis]

Playing Cross and Cresent...

Help!
Our Empire (Byzantine)is loosing fine Cataphracts to the grissly Trebuche siege engines of the Infedels!
Though Crete and Cyprus have been recovered and are producing ample tax and work.
Adjusted the scenario (which the events file will no longer work!*@) to create Pecheneg (Hungarian) horsemen in the Balkans, ravaging the Empire at the start of the game, renamed the Seljuks to Turkomans (Alp Aslan is now Tughrel Bey)and gave them more cities in the east to be more of a challenge to the Byzantines.

Every time I managed to built a siege tower, ship it to the coast of Antiokhia, fortify it, a Mamluke horseman would storm up from Tripoli and destroy it!
So the answer to that was to take Tripoli to secure the siege of Antiokhia.

Yes, a lot of good soldiers were killed just to bring pece to the Roman (Byz.) Empire., and my conscience wieghs heavy with the memories of seeing them anhilated helplessly under a Tribuche...
Maybe as a city improvement I could create a Cemetry (either decreases pollution or makes x number of citizens content).

Well, now the Empire has sorted out its tax deficit problem and has even embellished the capital (Nea Roma-Konstantinople) with wonders such as Land Peace, Notre Dame, First Crusade, True Cross and Theological World View.

After ardously dragging the siege engine through the hilly Balkans to eliminate the Pecheneg menace whilst having to use a Cataphract to divert the Pecheneg unit from destroying the Siege Engine, the Balkans are finally back under our rule and are being recolonised.

Else-where, the city of Malatia in the east of Anatolia has been captured.
The Crimea has been made a colony.
Tempted to take Sicily, but the Balkans offer more riches, and it is dangerous to get over-streched.

The city of Sevastea has become reknowned for its Krak De Cevalier wonder.

Outside our realm, the Moors have retaken the lands of Aquitania and Narbona from the French (West Franks) and things look grim indeed for western Christiandom.

The English, crafty, are allied with the West Franks and the East Franks.
The West Franks are at war with the East Franks!


Swapped the people gif for one that I had designed for the Age of Alexius scenario, sorry but the womens hair-do's looked too anachronistic and I did not want to touch Berne Brosings art work as, despite the Anachronsim, the work is good.

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MRP

[lord of the mark]

im on my 3rd try on this scen (amazing to find a scen that keeps me that hooked!)

First 2 times as HRE, now as England.

First time tried to use units to keep english and french off my cities, wasted shields, got behind.

Second time went to war early against english, then french. Pushed English off continent, but wasted units in amateurish assault on Rheims. Pushed to east, but then ended up in war with byzantines, bogged down.

As english pursued more peaceful trade strat, using easy intercontinental (I presume thats what is meant by 2 continent above) trade. Took Baltic region and began expansion south and east into russia. Founded city in Sardinia. kept out of central med by byzantine dromons, so launched "crusade" against moors - have taken ceuta and cartagena.

Im still refining strat on this. Clearly Dukedom, Barter, Kingdom are key techs at beginning - im still unsure about later - push for happiness wonder, empire, or go early for attack units? Also i think its probably better (as english) to land carvans quickly and send them to France/Germany/Spain versus the trouble to send them all the way to med, at least until have better naval units. Maybe that should be priority.


Note on map. In earlier post i said i thought the map was accurate. At that point I had only seen Germany, Italy, France (foreshortened Brittany didnt bother me) Of course Mideast, etc is not realistic and a new version with more realistic map is welcomed. nonetheless at a macro level the map supports historical accuracy well - Germans must expand to east, confront Byzantines in Italy - French can use their med coast to advance in Med, or push out on land. English are natural mariners/traders, but have difficulty accessing med. Can expand/exploit Baltic.

Hope we can get this forum going (unless Markos doesnt want us to, in which case let us know)

LOTM

[BeBMan]

LOTM, I did not notice this post earlier, it contains a lot of useful feedback for me. I´m currently a bit busy with my real life, but I´ll give you a more detailed answer in the next days.

For now only one question: is C&C one of the scns you converted to Civ2 ToT?