Vinland Map

[fairline]

This sounds like a really interesting project Cyclotron. Good luck with it

For regenerating seasonal 'rapids' units, check out Riverwar by Allard Hoefeld.

EDIT: Not sure how much use this is, but I came across the following maps of the various civs you mention while I was googling them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Artic-cultures-900-1500.png

[Cyclotron]

Alright, the map is basically done, though I'm continuing some minor tweaks. It'll probably be a while before I actually create the scenario file - there's still a lot to think about.

Basics:
Given the present approximate start/end dates, the scenario seems to be heading towards around 400 turns at 1/year. This is, of course, a lot of turns, and I may end up shortening that, either by making the scenario end sooner or switching it to 1 turn every 2 years. It's not going to be a pure war scenario - obviously, there will be fighting, but I want to make a Norse conquest from New Jersey to Manitoba impossible (unless, perhaps, you're playing on Chieftain). Negotiation will be initially closed, but can be enabled by "language" advances. Scoring will be freeform, as an objective-based victory isn't really appropriate here.

Advances:
400 years of history is a considerable amount, and I want the tech tree to reflect a bit of that. I don't just want to mirror the European "tech tree" from 1000-1400, however, for a few reasons.

• Iceland was already quite remote from European politics and technology. Greenland hardly bears a mention in sources of the time. Vinland would have been completely off the European radar, even if it were a productive colony - the distance is simply too great to keep up contact given the state of sea travel in the 11th century. (Whether a thriving Norse colony in Vinland would have led to the Age of Discovery beginning before 1492, however, is anyone's guess.)
• The natives may have impacted Vinlander technology, though this is debatable. Jared Diamond and others have noted with astonishment that the Greenland Norse seemed to remain ill-suited to their environment regardless of contacts with the Inuit; they never adapted any Inuit hunting methods, imported European clothing fashions that were plainly unsuited for their climate, and seem to have not eaten much fish even when their community was apparently plagued by hunger. On the other hand, Norse elsewhere (England, Sicily, Russia, Ireland) generally integrated very well into local cultures.

So I'm considering a sort of split tech tree - a "European" one that must be researched, and a "Native" one which can be traveled a lot faster through tech trading with the natives (assuming you aren't at war with all of them). Native technologies might include things like snowshoes, dog sleds, "Three Sisters" agriculture (corn/beans/squash), and cable-backed bows. I'd love to hear thoughts on this generally, because making a good tech tree with some intertwining branches between Native and European is going to be a hell of a task.

Christianity
The start of the scenario was right around the time when Scandinavia was Christianizing in earnest. Iceland had recently made Christianity the official religion, but pagan worship was still allowed in secret. Several of the voyages to Vinland had both Christians and Pagans in the ships together, and Leif Eriksson himself converted to Christianity around this time. It would be great if I could get Christianization (or resistance to it), both of the Norse and the Natives, to play a role somehow. Maybe through "choosing" from two branches of an advance tree? I'm not sure what benefits should be gained from choosing either side, however.

Units
I never realized how time consuming unit-making is! I've made a nice little lineup for the Beothuk and Thule/Inuit, but there's a lot more to do.

The Norse units pose a particular problem because they can't be the standard vikings. The colonists were armed, but they were largely farmers from Greenland with little iron - I don't imagine more than a handful had mail shirts, for instance (if any at all). That might change as more people immigrate, but the Norse unit base will be fairly light units that at best will be roughly comparable to their Native counterparts. The Norse will get some better units through events and later techs, but won't ever have a big qualitative edge over the Skraelings. The Norse didn't bring horses over historically, and probably won't get many cavalry units (again, if any at all) in this scenario.

Below are the Beothuk and Inuit I mentioned, along with a Dorset hunter (like the Inuit, but with a collar instead of a hood) and a Norse colonist/settler unit. I like how the Norse woman's traditional dress turned out; I was sure I was going to make a hash of that!

The Beothuk are a bit speculative (because they all died a long time ago), but I feel the lineup is reasonably well grounded in history. They wore caribou hide, either made into supple leather or worn with the fur on the inside, and dyed everything (and I do mean everything, including themselves) with red ochre, which explains their unique palette. They were reputed to be master archers, and used both clubs and shields in battle (the shield/bow combo is speculative, but if they used the shields "against arrows" as I have read, it would make some sense for an archer to carry one against other archers).

As for the blue ball in the staff sling...

The Skraelingar had also war-slings, or catapults. Then Karlsefni and Snorri see that the Skraelingar are bringing up poles, with a very large ball attached to each, to be compared in size to a sheep's stomach, dark in colour ['blue-black' or 'dark blue' in other translations]; and these flew over Karlsefni's company towards the land, and when they came down they struck the ground with a hideous noise. This produced great terror in Karlsefni and his company(...)

There's no evidence that the Beothuks in particular had this weapon - the Saga could have been talking about any skraeling group - but why not them?

[Cyrion]

Negotiation will be initially closed, but can be enabled by "language" advances.

Excellent idea!

Advances:
400 years of history is a considerable amount, and I want the tech tree to reflect a bit of that. I don't just want to mirror the European "tech tree" from 1000-1400, however, for a few reasons.

Maybe use some of the tech to trigger an event creating some otherwise un-produceable units (cavalry, or mail-clad vikings, or bersekr, or a drakkar, or whatever...)

[*]The natives may have impacted Vinlander technology, though this is debatable.
...
So I'm considering a sort of split tech tree - a "European" one that must be researched, and a "Native" one which can be traveled a lot faster through tech trading with the natives (assuming you aren't at war with all of them). Native technologies might include things like snowshoes, dog sleds, "Three Sisters" agriculture (corn/beans/squash), and cable-backed bows. I'd love to hear thoughts on this generally, because making a good tech tree with some intertwining branches between Native and European is going to be a hell of a task.

This sounds really interesting!

Christianity
The start of the scenario was right around the time when Scandinavia was Christianizing in earnest. Iceland had recently made Christianity the official religion, but pagan worship was still allowed in secret. Several of the voyages to Vinland had both Christians and Pagans in the ships together, and Leif Eriksson himself converted to Christianity around this time. It would be great if I could get Christianization (or resistance to it), both of the Norse and the Natives, to play a role somehow. Maybe through "choosing" from two branches of an advance tree? I'm not sure what benefits should be gained from choosing either side, however.

There is a risk if you include the Christian/Pagan in addition to the European/Native to make things a bit complex to implement.

Maybe you could leave the "religious" side and concentrate on the European/Native (which, I think, has never been handled in a Civ 2 scenario)

Units
The Norse units pose a particular problem because they can't be the standard vikings. The colonists were armed, but they were largely farmers from Greenland with little iron - I don't imagine more than a handful had mail shirts, for instance (if any at all). That might change as more people immigrate, but the Norse unit base will be fairly light units that at best will be roughly comparable to their Native counterparts. The Norse will get some better units through events and later techs, but won't ever have a big qualitative edge over the Skraelings. The Norse didn't bring horses over historically, and probably won't get many cavalry units (again, if any at all) in this scenario.

See my comment on techs above

Below are the Beothuk and Inuit I mentioned, along with a Dorset hunter (like the Inuit, but with a collar instead of a hood) and a Norse colonist/settler unit. I like how the Norse woman's traditional dress turned out; I was sure I was going to make a hash of that!

They are superb!

As for the blue ball in the staff sling...

How would this unit be used?

And in summary: the way this scenario seems to develop interests me tremendously!

[Harry Tuttle]

Excellent ideas! Love the units.

[Cyclotron]

I've been reconsidering my choice of the Inuit as a civ. The alternative would be the Iroquois, who should really be present on the map. The drawbacks of the Inuit are thus:

• Because they'd be "emergent," they wouldn't even play a role in the first 200 years or so. That's about half the scenario in which I'm not taking advantage of that civ slot.
• The chances of them becoming a thriving civ in their own right are unlikely, because the area they have to settle is so unproductive (tundra and more tundra). Event-created units could keep them competitive as long as I want, but if they exist just to be a font of event-generated units, why not just make them barbs?
• Historically, the Inuit did not have very good relations with any of their neighbors. They fought regularly with both the Cree and the Norse, with little peaceful cultural exchange. Again, this sounds like it could be better served by barbs.

Maybe use some of the tech to trigger an event creating some otherwise un-produceable units (cavalry, or mail-clad vikings, or bersekr, or a drakkar, or whatever...)

This is what I'm thinking as well. "Vikings" will arrive occasionally on their own, but only initially, as the Viking age is soon over in Europe. After that, special units will have to be acquired through technology or other events.

There is a risk if you include the Christian/Pagan in addition to the European/Native to make things a bit complex to implement.

Probably. By this time in history, Christianity was definitely on the winning side anyway, and Norse paganism wasn't long for this world.

How would this unit be used?

Probably a high attack, low defense "catapult" unit. And it would have to ignore walls, of course.

[Harry Tuttle]

[*]The chances of them becoming a thriving civ in their own right are unlikely, because the area they have to settle is so unproductive (tundra and more tundra). Event-created units could keep them competitive as long as I want, but if they exist just to be a font of event-generated units, why not just make them barbs?[/list]

You could change the fertility of the map in the areas you want them to settle. Of course this would also open up the area to other civs.

[Turno71]

I've been reconsidering my choice of the Inuit as a civ. The alternative would be the Iroquois, who should really be present on the map.

My two eurocents on this: NO. Both Iroquoian and Algonkian speaking tribe oral traditions reported the Iroquois and kinsmen ( Tionontati, Huron, Neutral, Wenro, Erie, Susquehannock, etc etc ) arrival to Great Lakes region around 1400 or so.
You can insert the temple mound people as a tribe instead of Iroquois, imho.

[Cyclotron]

My two eurocents on this: NO. Both Iroquoian and Algonkian speaking tribe oral traditions reported the Iroquois and kinsmen ( Tionontati, Huron, Neutral, Wenro, Erie, Susquehannock, etc etc ) arrival to Great Lakes region around 1400 or so.
You can insert the temple mound people as a tribe instead of Iroquois, imho.

Well, I'm aware the Iroquois Confederacy as such was a long way off at this point, but I need some kind of stand-in for Iroquoian peoples in New York. In my very limited research on the issue, I've heard the term "Owasco culture" as such a pre-Iroquois group, but I don't really know anything about them. Mounds were part of the larger Hopewell cultural group, but from what I've read that didn't endure in this area up to 1000 CE.

Which culture/group/whatever of mound-builders would you use? It sounds like you know a lot more about this than I do, so I'd be grateful for the help.

[Turno71]

Hmmm... Most of Owasco seems to have melted with both Algonquin and Iroquois.
After all, the arrival in the indian sagas might be referred to the moving of the Laurentian Iroquois from Stadacona/Quebec and Hochelaga ( near Montreal ), shortly after Cartier 1st voyage, dued to the Montagnais/Algonquin attacks..
How about the Owasco related - and most probably Huron/Tionontati/Neutral ancestors - Pickering Culture indians in Southwestern Ontario? Or the Oak Hill culture indians in the Mohawk and Richelieu valleys, from which emerged both Onondaga and Mohawk/Oneida cultures? You can always merge them as a Pre-Iroquois tribe...
BTW nice units for the Beothuk you got. You can use them for Algonquin and Iroquois also - winter dresses were pretty much the same. Just change the axes/maces for Iroquois.

[Cyclotron]

How about the Owasco related - and most probably Huron/Tionontati/Neutral ancestors - Pickering Culture indians in Southwestern Ontario? Or the Oak Hill culture indians in the Mohawk and Richelieu valleys, from which emerged both Onondaga and Mohawk/Oneida cultures? You can always merge them as a Pre-Iroquois tribe...

I think a general "pre-Iroquois" tribe in New York and southern Ontario is the best option. The problem is that I have no idea what to use for names, units, and so on. What do I even call them?

BTW nice units for the Beothuk you got. You can use them for Algonquin and Iroquois also - winter dresses were pretty much the same. Just change the axes/maces for Iroquois.

Thanks. I do want to make the units have some visible differences, however, so I'm trying to look for some key visual cues I could use to separate them. For the Beothuk, it was easy - make everything red. I'm not as certain as to how to distinuish the Cree, Algonquin, and proto-Iroquois.

[Turno71]

Thanks. I do want to make the units have some visible differences, however, so I'm trying to look for some key visual cues I could use to separate them. For the Beothuk, it was easy - make everything red. I'm not as certain as to how to distinuish the Cree, Algonquin, and proto-Iroquois.

XVI century Laurentian Iroquois were reported by Cartier using wooden tied stick or breastplate armours. Mohawks still used them against Champlain in XVII century, but quickly discarded them as these proved ineffective against European firearms.

Many Algonquin tribes painted red their faces, from the mouth to the hairs, or only the half of it, and used moose skins alot- you can just paint the dress darker. Onondaga Iroquois tatooed their bodies and faces. Mohawks like Algonquin also painted their faces - only they used white. Catawba - a southern Iroquoian tribe - painted their faces totally black, leaving only one white circle on an eye.

I don't think the Norsemen in this scen will think alot about their unit names: after all they were collectively called Skraelingars...
An idea about their names: since these tribes were often divided into clans named after an animal ( deer, turtle, wolf, etc etc ) why don't you name the villages like these clans? ex Wolf Cove, Deer's Nest, and so on...

[Cyclotron]

I don't think the Norsemen in this scen will think alot about their unit names: after all they were collectively called Skraelingars...

That's definitely true, but it's going to get a bit strange if all the civs are "northern skraelingar," "skraelingar who paint themselves red," "those skraelingar with the funny hats," and so on.

The unit names aren't as important to me as the settlement and civ names, since I can just call them "Beothuk Archers" and so on.

I'm working on Cree units right now. Here's one that is HIGHLY speculative. (And it came out almost Inca-esque for some reason. I think it's the hat.)

• For starters, the caribou coat and leggings seem to be accepted as standard for the region for winter wear (save for the Naskapi and other northern Cree, which wore winter gear more like that of the later Inuit).
• The shield, club, and fringed cloak are from Champlain's descriptions and an illutration of a Montagnais warrior you can see here. The stripes of color are also from Champlain's descriptions of the warriors who adorned their clothing with colored string and beads. The chevron pattern on the shield is from the woman's oar in that same picture. Champlain was a pretty early European visitor (beginning of the 1600s), so it seems likely that this regalia would be mostly unchanged by European materials and decorations. I'm not quite sure on that point.
• The rounded cap is something I've seen in several pictures and photographs of the Innu, but it's a bit tentative at this point because I can't figure out if it was pre-contact or not. I might replace it with a caribou hide hood as seen on this coat, which I modeled this unit's own coat on.

So as you can see, everything is drawn from the Montagnais, but it's not clear whether any of this was worn at the same time, let alone 600 years before Champlain arrived. Unfortunately, we have nothing to go on save early European descriptions and continuing traditions.

An idea about their names: since these tribes were often divided into clans named after an animal ( deer, turtle, wolf, etc etc ) why don't you name the villages like these clans? ex Wolf Cove, Deer's Nest, and so on...

Possibly. Because most of my civs are really broad groupings of many tribes, I was planning on naming some villages after tribes in that area. Others, however - like the Cree - lived in smaller bands and didn't have strong regional tribes like some other groups on the map.

[Turno71]

Onondaga at war with Isle des Alloumettes Algonquin. Obviously summer dress. part 1

WARNING CRUDE IMAGES DOWNLOAD AT YOUR RISK AND PERIL

From Cothias-Julliard "Plumes aux vents"

[Turno71]

Part 2. merge both files with winrar.

[Turno71]

Mohawks winter dress. From the same work as previous one. Part 1 and 2

EDIT the wooden armour used by Mohawks, as depicted in Champlain chronicles.
It reminds me of something i've seen before...