Frustrating AGRICOLA

[civ2units]

I think we should distinguish between a war scenario and an empire build up scenario when using wonders and city improvements.
I noticed in my Civilwar scenario (and the playtesters also) that the AI starts to build many improvements and nearly no units. This isn´t really realistic, especially in a war scenario. So my way is to disable improvements and wonder building and only allowing very important and necessary city improvements (i.e. cathedrals, city walls, harbor). Researching isn´t importing (only some war techs) so libraries and everything else with education will be banned. In a war scenario shouldn´t be time enough for researching.

In a build up scenario you can allow everything, it´s necessary to research, build cities and build improvements for city growth.

Btw, after a little break from civ2 I decided first to complete my Civilwar scenario and then starting with the Medieval Time.

[Harry Tuttle]

"...we thought about making barracks buildable but extremely expensive, like somewhere in the region of a wonder. That way a limited number of specialist training depots could be built but not one in every city."

That could work, but wouldn't that potentially make it cheaper to just field train units?

[Turno71]

I think we should distinguish between a war scenario and an empire build up scenario when using wonders and city improvements.
I noticed in my Civilwar scenario (and the playtesters also) that the AI starts to build many improvements and nearly no units. This isn´t really realistic, especially in a war scenario. So my way is to disable improvements and wonder building and only allowing very important and necessary city improvements (i.e. cathedrals, city walls, harbor). Researching isn´t importing (only some war techs) so libraries and everything else with education will be banned. In a war scenario shouldn´t be time enough for researching.

In a build up scenario you can allow everything, it´s necessary to research, build cities and build improvements for city growth.

Btw, after a little break from civ2 I decided first to complete my Civilwar scenario and then starting with the Medieval Time.

In a short timed period, yes. In a long time period, research is important and can not be forgotten.
IMHO, only Colossus, Lighthouse, Oracle and Great library should be allowed in ancient scenaries.
About militaries, we have to remember this: in history, almost every important military's reform came after an important social/economical/technological revolution. Also, a long term scenario can be started with low basis A/D/F/C point units, and finished with the opposite.
If a scenario is placed in a period where military sciences changed little, what Civ2units said is affordable. Just make then improvements only in a few cities, and made them a "no,no" tech buildings.

@Harry
You got a point here, Harry. Barracks can be sold, and a huge cost barrack will generate a cash flow so huge that probably AGRI will use.

Better cheaper, easily builded, and in a strong grow limited city ratio, barracks. Plus, if i remember correctly,in ToT techs can be given or taken via events, right?
Increase settlers cost to unbearable levels is better.

[McMonkey]

"...we thought about making barracks buildable but extremely expensive, like somewhere in the region of a wonder. That way a limited number of specialist training depots could be built but not one in every city."

That could work, but wouldn't that potentially make it cheaper to just field train units?

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. Most cities would produce conscripts who would have to gain veteran status in combat while a few large cities could afford to have barracks and train regular (vet) troops. I don't have a problem with barracks, its just that they are normally so cheap that every city can afford them.

I like the idea that a small but experienced army can defeat a larger inexperienced one.

[Turno71]

Why don't you place them into barbarian cities? If you use barbarian as buffers between two civs, like i do, it's going to be fun to see how the untrained AGRI enmasse units tactic will react against vet barbar ones...

EDIT: Has anyone ever tried to raise the barracks' maintenance cost? ( hint, hint...)

[techumseh]

Encouraging the AI

Civ2units makes a couple of excellent points. There is a difference between a war scenario and an empire-building scenario. For the imperial scenario, you do want to give the AI a bit more freedom to make decisions about what to produce, including building more unit types, such as settlers and trade units. But unless you specify that only specific civs are playable, anything the AI can build is also buildable by the human player. And that gives the human player an advantage that has to be offset in other ways.

The second point applies to both imperial and war scenarios. IMHO, you should know, and control what the AI is producing. This is overlooked by many designers. On a number of occasions, I've managed to launch an invasion of a strong AI-contolled civ, expecting to have a real fight on my hands. But instead of fighting for it's life, the AI civ is producing Superhighways or Sewage Systems in most of it's cities.

Directly related is the difficulty in getting the AI to build all of the units you want it to, and in the desired ratios. This is very tricky, and in some cases requires much trial and error. Varying attack/defense and unit costs solves most of it, but changing the role to air or naval superiority can also prod a reluctant AI into producing more types of units. Unit slots have some effect as well.

I like to know what the AI is doing at various points in the scenario, and make sure it's building what I want it to. I usually play through a scenario I'm working on several times from start to finish, stopping every few turns and looking at what the AI is doing. I also sometimes play the scenario using the 'entire map' view, to see how the AI moves and fights. This can be a very long and tiring process, but it eventually stops, and you can see how bad the AI really is.

[Turno71]

Yeah, sometimes the AI acts like a total idiot, and sometimes acts exactly like AGRI, building a train of effective units... that's pretty hard to balance. To reserve few playable civ for humans and leaving the others to AI ( an unit aid with Events is a must ) is the only solution i got so far. I hope ToT, to which i switched recently, will prove more flexible on this point...
On point number two. That's why a reducing building cost policy ( or to erase them, or to reserve some of them only to AI or barbarians ) has my seal of approval. AI will start quickly to produce units this way.

[civ2units]

Is it possible that maybe someone could write down the tips and post them on the SL? Unfortunatelly my english isn´t very well so I would like to ask someone from this forum.

[McMonkey]

We could compile a 2009 guide like the ones of yesteryear and post that on the SL Site. Some of the old guides are very well written and the basic principles still stand, but a lot has been learned in the past few years, especially about ToT. We could start by adding Tech's post in a slightly edited form and then add info and edit it as we go along. Perhaps something along these lines: New guides

Should be fairly easy to alter and add to and anyone can submit stuff.

[civ2units]

Great McMonkey

This is, what I had in mind. Now we can add new things in one guide (especially about TOT).
Maybe we should also create a guide for the events language (i.e. how to use flags, what is possible, etc...)

[McMonkey]

There are technical guides about the events language but as far as I know no more general guides about using them in a scenario. This kind of info will be useful to new designers (new to ToT) and also very useful as a refresher for more established designers who tend to forget things

[techumseh]

I'd be prepared to edit my comments into a single article - leaving out the personal references - and add it to the SL wiki as a tip.

[fairline]

Great stuff

Can I add banning Agri from using any paint program to 'improve' terrain gfx to the list of things to frustate him with?

[McMonkey]

I'd be prepared to edit my comments into a single article - leaving out the personal references - and add it to the SL wiki as a tip.

That would be great! Feel free to overwrite the stuff I put on there, I was just using it as an example and it was your post after all. Whenever I get the spare time I try and tidy up and re-organize the SL Site, add new stuff etc... Its an ongoing process. Information on the principles of scenario design are just as valuable as the technical guides and make for some fascinating reading.

[Turno71]

We could compile a 2009 guide like the ones of yesteryear and post that on the SL Site. Some of the old guides are very well written and the basic principles still stand, but a lot has been learned in the past few years, especially about ToT. We could start by adding Tech's post in a slightly edited form and then add info and edit it as we go along. Perhaps something along these lines: New guides

Should be fairly easy to alter and add to and anyone can submit stuff.

You missed point number 7. I enjoy being kind of a Nazi perfectionist about this...