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  • Frustrating AGRICOLA

    One of the things about scenario designing that I've found most challenging, and fun too, is trying to thwart AGRICOLA's aggressive and ruthless playtest style. Aggie lacks any sort of sentimentality or desire to follow historical precedents. He sees a scenario in an abstract way, as a complex equation to be solved, regardless of deviations from historical realism.

    On the other hand, I'm a historical romantic. I like a scenario to look like, sound like, and feel like, the original battle, campaign or war. I tend to use historical strategies, and not go "outside the box" very much. In designing scenarios, I want a historically successful strategy to be successful in the scenario as well.

    This represents a double challenge. First, how to block off, as much as possible, ahistorical or unrealistic strategies, and force the player to employ historically realistic strategies in order to win. And second, how to make the scenario fun not just for Aggie and players like him, but also for intermediate players as well. Here are a few tricks I've tried:

    1. Limit or control units and their functions

    Aggie uses specific units en mass. In particular he loves engineers (or settlers). Don't let him build any! He'll have the whole map paved like a Wal-Mart parking lot in no time. If the human player needs 1 or 2 engineers, give them at start or by events.

    Ditto trade units and diplomats. If trade units produce lots of gold (depending on what techs are given and the size of the map), expect mass trading followed by mass rush buying of powerful units. In Frederick the Great, I only allowed the Prussians to have trade units by events, one for each enemy trade unit captured - and events only create 'hides', so the payoff is low.

    For a human controlled player, building diplomat or spy units can really upset the balance. Fortunately, by editing their functions in the Game text file, you can control which functions a spy can perform. Get rid of 'bribe' for sure - I prefer to only permit 'investigate city'. The functions of AI controlled spies are not limited by editing, so I restrict them to the human player only.

    2. Watch cost/benefit carefully

    Aggie will exploit any advantage, ignoring any units that don't provide value for the shields or gold needed to build them. More powerful units, and those with special abilities, should cost a premium. For example, a unit that is twice as powerful as another should cost three times as much.

    To prevent a massive siege train taking one city after another (one of his favourite tactics), I like to make siege artillery units as expensive as possible, and add the missile flag, so they are destroyed after attacking. I believe this is realistic, as sieges are very expensive and time consuming.

    3. Differentiate units

    Maximize the different abilities of units, so the human player must build a variety of types. Differentiation of attack and defence units, those that can attack fortified cities, defend against air attack, and those that can move through zones of control, treat rough terrain as road or move onto impassible terrain are all useful.

    4. Limit mobility

    Obviously, fast moving armies allow the human player to conduct much more effective offensives, which is why Aggie likes higher MF units. This is fine, but you can balance higher speeds with somewhat lower attack factors. This forces the human player to stop from time to time to let his units recover.

    Don't use railroads except in very limited ways, eg. as suburbs around large cities. NEVER allow the construction of railways.

    5. Control diplomacy

    The Civ2 diplomatic model is a pain, as anyone who's tried to keep an ally can attest, but it provides opportunity for the human player to shake down the AI civs, sometimes in a massive way. This is unrealistic and undesireable.

    For most scenarios, rigid alliances and hostilities are preferable, so the ToT flag system to prevent civs from talking is very valuable. It has the added advantage of allowing specified civs to talk, via events. AI controlled diplomatic units can screw up alliances, so don't allow them.


    6. Use events

    The AI is incompetent and easily defeated, so it must be supplemented by event generated unit production and directed offensives. To provide a reasonable challenge to a good human player, AI forces should outnumber the human controlled force by about 3-1. Fortunately, the ToT AI allows multiple units (up to 255) to be produced by just one event.

    It also allows multiple triggers, so you can set up counter-offensives and ambushes, which Aggie loves. Make frequent use of the MOVEUNIT event to get your reinforcements moving in the right direction. Feel free to be as fiendish as you can - the Test of Time events give you enormous flexibility.

    To provide a fun and winnable experience for intermediate players, you may wish to use a different event files. Simply varying the number of event-generated units is the best way to make a scenario more or less difficult. And, of course adjusting the difficulty level, although in an events-driven scenario, it may not be enough.

    I hope this is of some use. I'm looking forward to comments anyone might have.
    Tecumseh's Village, Home of Fine Civilization Scenarios

    www.tecumseh.150m.com

  • #2
    Originally posted by techumseh View Post
    One of the things about scenario designing that I've found most challenging, and fun too, is trying to thwart AGRICOLA's aggressive and ruthless playtest style.
    Yes, it is a important part of the fun for me too: trying to guess how AGRI will turn my scen upon its head and how to prevent it: he is so inventive and efficient that this is no easy task...

    This represents a double challenge. First, how to block off, as much as possible, ahistorical or unrealistic strategies, and force the player to employ historically realistic strategies in order to win. And second, how to make the scenario fun not just for Aggie and players like him, but also for intermediate players as well.
    Yes, that's an additional challenge: make a scenario at the same time interesting (even if very hard) for intermediate players but not too easy for the atypical ones!

    And I would add that while encouraging historically succesful strategies is fine, I don't want to discourage some creativity either and make things too linear or straightforward.

    1. Limit or control units and their functions
    ...
    .2. Watch cost/benefit carefully
    ...
    3. Differentiate units
    ...
    4. Limit mobility
    ...
    5. Control diplomacy
    ...
    6. Use events
    ...
    Excellent points you made there, and not only to thwart AGRI's strategies but for general scenario design too!

    And as a conclusion: thanks AGRICOLA for helping us by spotting (and making full use of) any loophole and giving us so many useful comments, as well as providing such an interesting additional challenge!
    Ankh-Morpork, we have an orangutan...
    Discworld Scenario: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...8&pagenumber=1
    POMARJ Scenario:http://www.apolyton.com/forums/showt...8&pagenumber=1
    LOST LEGIONS Scenario:http://www.apolyton.com/forums/showt...hreadid=169464

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    • #3
      Top post Tech. Printing it off now to add to my file of scenario design aids. It is especially well timed for my work on ACIII.

      I agree with points 1, 2 and 3. I will use my Roman units from ACIII as an example. The Velites are Alpine and ignore ZOC, Equites have two space visibility and high movement, Hastatii and Principes are the offensive infantry and have the Marine Flag, Trirarii are the defensive infantry and siege engines ignore walls. This way all unit types have their uses and should be worth building.

      Cost is another thing to consider carefully. I price things with even numbers. Velites are 40 shields, Hastatii 60, Principes and Triarii 80, Equites and Rams 100, more effective Towers and Catapults are 120 and 140. The even numbers mean that rush building is that much more expensive (60 gold to fill the two lines instead of 2x 25 gold). Depending on the amount of trade in the scenario I might even increase the gaps to keep rush building under control. If rush building is too easy then the cheaper end of the unit range will be ignored whilst the elite units are build en mass. Historically the Republican Legions were a mix of all the unit types and I would like to represent this.

      Now for the horsepukey We are very lucky to have you to playtest for us Aggie. Not only do you test our work to destruction so we can perfect them, you also take the time and effort to set out your findings so we can be clear what needs doing. For me playtesting is the thing I enjoy least so your efforts are invaluable!
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      • #4
        Good points, but ... they can be improved a little.

        Another way to create a more challenging scenario to playtest for - at least in ancient eras - is to strongly limit cities' growth and food rate ( i.e. a 300000 city is only a level 7 city on Civ2... and if you raise the food rate to three per citizen... ). This way cities

        a) will support less units ( a city needs food to grow, and plains are amongst the less productive terrains in shield value );
        b) will grow slowly ( useful in long scenarios ),
        c) will make bribe more difficult due to the low wealth grow rate,
        d) will create a more realistic effect on sieges and long-term blockades.

        It is a lot more difficult to create an enmasse assault this way. Not to mention you can retouch your civil strife value to 1 or 2 at captain level, so you will need the martial law in a lot of cities - and a lot of units - especially on a huuuge map.
        And, oh, this will help too because your Elvises will consume wealth resources to keep your rebellious guys quiet...
        Last edited by Turno71; September 15, 2009, 10:16. Reason: I forgot one thing - added! :)
        "The wise win before they fight, while the ignorant fight to win" - Zhuge Liang "Use the ordinary forces to engage battle, the extraordinary to win" - Sun Tzu

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        • #5
          Originally posted by techumseh View Post
          He sees a scenario in an abstract way, as a complex equation to be solved, regardless of deviations from historical realism.

          Right on, and to be won in the most efficient way possible. BTW, did you do a minor in psychology?



          Originally posted by techumseh View Post
          AGRICOLA's aggressive and ruthless playtest style. Aggie lacks any sort of sentimentality or desire to follow historical precedents.

          Hmmm??? I prefer to think of it as a reasoned and highly logical approach. Being a bumpkin who thinks in straight lines, I follow chapter and verse of the simplest of cookbooks:

          1. Firstly, take care of defenses so there are minimal chances of nasty surprises.
          2. Guard your backside. At all costs, avoid a prolonged war on two or more fronts and go after the civ that will best reduce the number of fronts.
          3. Again, being a simple soul who dislikes complexity, select the most cost-effective (not necessarily the best) defensive and offensive units. This minimizes uncertainty about what enemy units they can defeat. It also makes for a tidier looking map.
          4. At all costs avoid playing with non-vet units. IMHO a vet is worth 3-4 draftees.
          5. Never forget AGRICOLA's LAW OF CIVILIZATION II:

          "If anything can go wrong and at the worst possible time, dedicated designers are working diligently to make sure that it will."

          Thanks to y'all for your kind thoughts and words.
          Excerpts from the Manual of the Civilization Fanatic :

          Money can buy happiness, just raise the luxury rate to 50%.
          Money is not the root of all evil, it is the root of great empires.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by AGRICOLA View Post
            2. Guard your backside. At all costs, avoid a prolonged war on two or more fronts and go after the civ that will best reduce the number of fronts.
            Interesting.... you just showed us your weak spot, AGRI....
            "The wise win before they fight, while the ignorant fight to win" - Zhuge Liang "Use the ordinary forces to engage battle, the extraordinary to win" - Sun Tzu

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            • #7
              Note to self, have AI attack on ALL fronts...

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              • #8
                Note to self, stay away from those scens ...
                Excerpts from the Manual of the Civilization Fanatic :

                Money can buy happiness, just raise the luxury rate to 50%.
                Money is not the root of all evil, it is the root of great empires.

                Comment


                • #9
                  7. Limit improvements

                  Aggie doesn't care if your children go without an education, garbage dumps overflow, or there's sewage in the streets. He will privatize any municipal improvement that doesn't bring in money or increase production. And he's not the only one.

                  Don't give cities any improvements not absolutely essential for winning the scenario, or they will be sold and used to buy units. Think carefully about including things like granaries, aqueducts and recycling depots. If a technological race is not a factor, don't add libraries and universities. Avoid adding Colosseums and Cathedrals to smaller cities that don't need them. If an improvement is not absolutely neccessary, leave it out.

                  Some improvements are critical, especially City Walls, which insure that cities are not wiped out from being captured and recaptured. To ensure that they do get rebuilt, make their cost as low as possible, even 0, so there's no reason for a player to not rebuild them.

                  Since barracks and Sun Tzu War Academy have an unrealistic effect, and because Aggie likes them so much , I don't usually include them. Historically, armies usually became proficient from battle, though there may be some cases where you want to represent a superior army at the start of the scenario. Adding one or more barracks at the start of the scenario may be desireable, but I suggest you don't allow them to be built.
                  Tecumseh's Village, Home of Fine Civilization Scenarios

                  www.tecumseh.150m.com

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by techumseh View Post
                    7. Limit improvements

                    Aggie doesn't care if your children go without an education, garbage dumps overflow, or there's sewage in the streets. He will privatize any municipal improvement that doesn't bring in money or increase production. And he's not the only one.

                    Don't give cities any improvements not absolutely essential for winning the scenario, or they will be sold and used to buy units. Think carefully about including things like granaries, aqueducts and recycling depots. If a technological race is not a factor, don't add libraries and universities. Avoid adding Colosseums and Cathedrals to smaller cities that don't need them. If an improvement is not absolutely neccessary, leave it out.

                    Some improvements are critical, especially City Walls, which insure that cities are not wiped out from being captured and recaptured. To ensure that they do get rebuilt, make their cost as low as possible, even 0, so there's no reason for a player to not rebuild them.

                    Since barracks and Sun Tzu War Academy have an unrealistic effect, and because Aggie likes them so much , I don't usually include them. Historically, armies usually became proficient from battle, though there may be some cases where you want to represent a superior army at the start of the scenario. Adding one or more barracks at the start of the scenario may be desireable, but I suggest you don't allow them to be built.
                    a1) I used to place into my scenarios also global effect wonders ( Hoover Dam, Leonardo's Workshop, etc etc). I don't use them anymore - this to prevent this sell and buy thing.

                    Originally posted by techumseh View Post
                    Think carefully about including things like granaries, aqueducts and recycling depots.

                    Avoid adding Colosseums and Cathedrals to smaller cities that don't need them....

                    Since barracks and Sun Tzu War Academy have an unrealistic effect, and because Aggie likes them so much , I don't usually include them. Historically, armies usually became proficient from battle, though there may be some cases where you want to represent a superior army at the start of the scenario. Adding one or more barracks at the start of the scenario may be desireable, but I suggest you don't allow them to be built.
                    GRANARIES: Create only a few of them - only in cities that must grow quickly ( on the front line, historically freshly founded cities, etc etc). If you follow my advice to reduce the city growth ratio, sell them after their effect is no more needed. Also reduce their cost.
                    COLOSSEUMS/CATHEDRALS: .... unless your civilization strife rate is so high that selling one will cause a revolution.
                    BARRACKS: I agree. Also, create a few in strategic point cities, and made them a "no,no" tech building.

                    b1) Make sure your research/time ratio is high enough when you create a scenario.

                    c1) Better if you start with weak units. Add the most powerful ones only by event, or as a result of a long research tech path.

                    d1) I have forgotten!!!!! Always diminish Civ funds with Events.TXT!!! Trigger-caused festivities, frauds and extraordinary out-of-cash flows will keep you threasure in more normal and acceptable limits
                    Last edited by Turno71; September 17, 2009, 07:18. Reason: Added one important thing...
                    "The wise win before they fight, while the ignorant fight to win" - Zhuge Liang "Use the ordinary forces to engage battle, the extraordinary to win" - Sun Tzu

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                    • #11
                      Great ideas for a scenario designer to make it more interesting and difficultly, especially for Aggie

                      I will definitelly use some of the ideas for my Civilwar scenario.
                      American War of Independence
                      A Divided Nation - US Civilwar

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                      • #12
                        Good to know these facts, i will reconsider them in my scenario.
                        We all like it hard don't we ?

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Hans99 View Post
                          We all like it hard don't we ?

                          Oooh Matron!



                          Just kidding Yes, the tougher the better. I don't mind failing on my first few attempts at a scenario. Victory is just that much sweeter when I finally crack it
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                          • #14
                            I was discussing Sun Tzu's / Barracks with Alcibaides (Salaambo) yesterday and we thought about making barracks buildable but extremely expensive, like somewhere in the region of a wonder. That way a limited number of specialist training depots could be built but not one in every city. Do you guys think that would work or would a determined player find the funds to build universal barracks whatever the cost?

                            I completely agree with Techumseh about veteran units. If barracks end up being universal then all units are produced as veterans and the green/veteran aspect of the game is lost. I enjoy sending my untested troops into battle and carefully withdrawing the badly damaged new veterans for refitting before they return as the elite core of my army.

                            On events. I'm sure this has been said many times before but another way to keep an AI nation fighting, either in attack of in defense is to use multiple coordinates for unit spawning. For example if you want to support an AI attack make the first coordinate the furthest enemy city and then work your way back to the starting front line. This way when the AI captures a new enemy city new units will spawn there first, helping keep the momentum of the AI attack.

                            In defense make the coordinates for unit spawning the front line city first then work your way back to your final refuge. This way the AI will continue to resist even when in retreat. Of course you can combine the attack and defense parts into one event. These type of events are very simple to make and don't take up too much space in the events file.
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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by McMonkey View Post

                              I completely agree with Techumseh about veteran units. If barracks end up being universal then all units are produced as veterans and the green/veteran aspect of the game is lost. I enjoy sending my untested troops into battle and carefully withdrawing the badly damaged new veterans for refitting before they return as the elite core of my army.
                              Fine about the costs. Regarding the bold text, you can also have them available after a loooon g research tech tree. This way, players like Agri will finally learn is not always convenient to have your Civ population go around the map ignorant as a mad donkey.
                              "The wise win before they fight, while the ignorant fight to win" - Zhuge Liang "Use the ordinary forces to engage battle, the extraordinary to win" - Sun Tzu

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