When Civ II Source Code Is Released... What Are Your Plans?

[Peter Triggs]

I think that the first thing you should do is try to verify that the code exists.

IIRC, someone told Locutus that the code has been lost. You might PM Locutus and see what he remembers.

[Harry Tuttle]

Considering the petition was written in 2005 I think the XP part was very sensical. The same problem still exists, now with Vista. Just change it to Vista and add in the problems with the 32 to 64 bit conversion. My uncles new machine can't run Civ II because of it.

[McMonkey]

Really? I was not aware of any problems with running CivII with XP or Vista. I have run it ok on both OS.

Do you think it will be possible to fix these compatibility issues if we get hold of the code? If that is the reason for mentioning the problem then it makes sense to argue for its release so we can fix the bug.

In the version of the letter I read it says:

"1) Due to the recent release of Windows XP and the Operating System's penchant for not working well with old games, Civilization II has been increasingly troublesome to play. Major modifications to the root directory are required to run the game, causing problems for any Civ II/Windows XP user. As is evident, Windows XP has become the dominant Operating System for all new computers. Thus, Civilization II has become an obsolete game."

To me this does not read as if you are saying you want to fix the problem, but maybe I am misunderstanding the meaning. The way it reads for me it is saying that CivII is obsolete which is not the message we should be putting across!

Also in section 2 it says: "Very few people want to pay for a game that was originally released in 1996. Thus, Civilization II has become uninteresting to the vast majority of computer game consumers."

Although this is true and illustrates that releasing the code is not a threat to the Civilization series future sales I think it undermines our arguement in other areas. What is the point of collecting a petition with 600 names then saying the game us unpopular? I would try and make the point that there are still a lot of fans, even after all these years, who would benefit from the Source Code release and this would add to the good publicity/goodwill towards 2K games in the Civilization buying community as a whole.

I hope you don't take offense to any of my comments. You obviously put a lot of time and effort into putting the letter together and I will use elements of it for the updated version. I also realize it was written some time ago and needs updating. I just think that some of the points add no value to our argument, or contradict it, and could be left out. To begin with we just need to get our foot in the door and find someone who is willing to discuss the proposal. If we get that far we can really argue our case.

[McMonkey]

I think that the first thing you should do is try to verify that the code exists.

IIRC, someone told Locutus that the code has been lost. You might PM Locutus and see what he remembers.

I hope that is not the case Someone call Dr Jones and tell him to bring along his hat and whip!

I agree that establishing if the code still exists and if so where it resides is our #1 priority. If it really is lost this whole exercise is a waste of time! I find it hard to believe that the code for one of the best selling computer games of all times could just disappear, but then what do I know

Excuse my ignorance, but who is Locutus? Might he have contacts with anyone at 2K games?

[DarkCloud]

Er. Don't bother about PMing Locutus, he's been MIA at the site for the past 4 months. He'll probably be back sooner or later though, since he's a co-owner.

[DarkCloud]

? I seem to recall that Civ II ran fine under XP, but it had some problems with unpatched Vista.

[Harry Tuttle]

Really? I was not aware of any problems with running CivII with XP or Vista. I have run it ok on both OS.

Do you think it will be possible to fix these compatibility issues if we get hold of the code? If that is the reason for mentioning the problem then it makes sense to argue for its release so we can fix the bug.

Well, as for compatability, I haven't had any luck installing from a CD onto a Vista machine. Civ 2 is 32 bit and Vista runs as a 64 bit OS. I have quite a few old programs that I can't reinstall. Somehow I got Civ 2 to work from a backup, but then again my copy has been modded a few times over. So that's my reasoning. If I'm the exception then I guess the section is outdated.

Can we fix any compatability problems with Vista? I guess so, seeing as I can indeed run the program. As for XP, there were some problems with XP, but those were largely resolved.

To me this does not read as if you are saying you want to fix the problem, but maybe I am misunderstanding the meaning. The way it reads for me it is saying that CivII is obsolete which is not the message we should be putting across!

The idea behind calling Civ 2 obsolete was indeed to present it as a non-threat to the then-to-be-released Civ 4. Civ 3 was such a distaster that Civ 2 was still seen as a better game in many circles. A repeat of this disaster with Civ 4 and Civ 2 would be a competitor, of all things.

I think the obsolete argument has a lot of merit. A game company isn't going to release a game to open source if it can still sell the CD in stores. I think we need to show that the game can't make them a profit and is only useful as a gesture of goodwill.

Also in section 2 it says: "Very few people want to pay for a game that was originally released in 1996. Thus, Civilization II has become uninteresting to the vast majority of computer game consumers."

Although this is true and illustrates that releasing the code is not a threat to the Civilization series future sales I think it undermines our arguement in other areas. What is the point of collecting a petition with 600 names then saying the game us unpopular? I would try and make the point that there are still a lot of fans, even after all these years, who would benefit from the Source Code release and this would add to the good publicity/goodwill towards 2K games in the Civilization buying community as a whole.

The petition does not say that it's unpopular, just that it's uninteresting to the majority of consumers. Most people would rather buy a new computer game, not an old one. This ties into the whole idea of the game being obsolete and worthless as a sales item.

-----

I'm all for the release of the code through whatever means necessary, but remember that people signed the petition as is, after a lot of debate.

That said, If any changes you make work then great. If you can make some headway then more power to you. Good luck.

[McMonkey]

Thanks Harry. I see what you are saying about using the argument that the game is obsolete to illustrate that the release would not be in any way a negative thing for Take 2 Interactive's profits. What I may do is send an introductory letter or e-mail with a very clear message and include some of the more detailed points of our argument in a separate document alongside the petition. I think the main thing we need to do is find someone willing to talk to us at 2K. If we can get that far we can hopefully expand on our idea and convince them it is worth their time to help us out.

I still really need to read my way through all the posts in the threads here and at Civ Fanatics so I am aware of all the points that petitioners have made over the past few years. I think most people who signed the petition were just interested in getting the code, I am sure they would go along with any method for doing so as long as it is successful. I have noticed that at least one of the petitioners has shuffled off this mortal coil and is no doubt watching with amusement from the afterlife!

[McMonkey]

RIP Battosai

And talking about Civers who have left us I sadly found out this morning that another of our brothers has quit the game.

For those of you that knew Battosai I thought I ought to let you know about his death. I knew him only for only a relatively brief time but I was very fond of him and I will miss him a lot.

If you wish to leave a message of condolence then this thread is probably the best place: http://civforum.de/showthread.php?t=57997

[DarkCloud]

Now don't I feel silly, Locutus returned last week. About as soon as I posted this here, I saw him posting in the staff room. ops:

[McMonkey]

Not great news I'm afraid. Please take a look at Catfish's post #328 here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...67#post7722967

I will try and contact Jason Bergmann on the off chance that the Code has somehow turned up in the past couple of years but this does not bode well for the quest

[Locutus]

I think that the first thing you should do is try to verify that the code exists.

IIRC, someone told Locutus that the code has been lost. You might PM Locutus and see what he remembers.

Indeed, I have said on a number of occasions since this petition first started that we can say with virtual certainty that the Civ2 source code (sadly) doesn't exist anymore:

* Firaxis has on at least two (and I think even more) occasions said that they do not have the code (once by way of Soren Johnson on an early PolyCast interview, at least once more before that but I don't remember when/where);
* 2K confirmed a few years ago by way of Jason Bergman that they do not own any Civ1/2 assets (see McMonkey's post above);
* Brian Reynolds said that he does not have the code anymore (I think the link to that is also in the thread McMonkey links to);
* The Hunt Valley Microprose office (that headed up Civ2 development/publication) was close down in 2003, any assets associated with them will be long-lost by now.

The only possible way that the Civ2 source code could still exist would be in the form of some ancient backup by Atari somewhere, but Atari pretty much closed down all their game development as well a while back (and has now relaunched as a mobile brand IIUC). The chances of them still having a 15-year-old backup somewhere from an office they closed down 6 years ago is pretty much zero. They should have transferred all Civ-related assets to 2K when the latter purchased the franchise, but as stated in McMonkey's link that included nothing related to Civ2 (Atari made a statement along these lines in response to inquires about the Civ2 source code a few years back, but I don't know where to find this anymore).

Unfortunately keeping source code of old products is not typically something game companies are very consciously doing; once a project is done they simply move on to the next one, with the code for the old game maybe still lingering in a dusty corner of a harddrive somewhere, but once the hardware is replaced the contents of the drives is often lost. For this stuff to survive in the long run it's really up to individual proud and diligent programmers to keep copies in their personal archives, which is invariably where the source code that you see being released for certain old games comes from (Doom, SimCity, Mech Commander, etc -- I believe this was true for CtP2 as well).

For those still wanting to fix up Civ2, by now I think your best bet is to just recreate it from scratch (or better yet, make a fork of FreeCiv, they've already done 80% of the work): Civ2 is an ancient game that was basically put together by one guy (Brian Reynolds) in about a year's time -- two or three modern programmers shouldn't have too much trouble recreating the exact identical gameplay in a reasonable time frame (in hindsight, if someone had started on such a thing when this petition was first posted it could probably have been completed twice or thrice over by now). With the source code from things like FreeCiv, CtP2 and Civ4 providing examples for specific algorithms it really shouldn't be too hard. It wouldn't even really be a first: I'm pretty sure this was already done once for a mobile port of Civ1 (and mobile games tend to be really low-budget projects with only 1 or 2 programmers and no more than a year of dev time).

Mind you, technically such a thing could get you in legal trouble but I seriously doubt 2K would go after a project like that -- but if you want to be sure you could ask their permission first.

[McMonkey]

Thanks for the reply Locutus. I think that pretty much wraps up the effort (not that I actually did very much) from my point of view. It was a nice dream while it lasted It was always a longshot and now at least we know better than to waste any more time chasing a ghost. Its a shame that better care was not taken of such a hallowed relic but its not the end of the world. I will continue to produce scenarios for my own amusement and the few diehards who keep the CivII candle burning

I will take a look at FreeCiv and see what I can do to help, though my programing skills are extremely basic. Thanks again for putting us straight Locutus!

[DarkCloud]

Oh well. A pity, then.

http://c-evo.org/

Is another very good civ clone.

~DC.

[Harry Tuttle]

C-evo is alright, but I think Freeciv is the game to look at. Only problem is that the programmers never quite got the idea for an event language. The Civ2 event language is one of the pillars to the longevity of Civ2. The Scenario League would not be here today without it.