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  • #31
    Okay, in order of first to last...


    1) As stated, Zouaves just wore fancy uniforms. Worth including to be colorful, perhaps.
    2) 90%+ of the units in the war were Volunteer units. The Regular US army (at the start of the war) was 16,000 men, almost all of it out west. A few "regular" regiments were raised during the war, but they'd be essentially the same as volunteers for all intents and purposes. So Volunteer Infantry is regular, in the sense of standard, infantry.

    3) Ah, I was unclear, appaerntly. I meant that the stats are fine as is. I'd make them damn rare though. Only highly fortified cities would require using them to take out the city (Vicksburg, Richmond, Washington...) and make a Confederate version (same in all ways, maybe a Confederate flag) that costs much more (or make the CSA only get them by events)

    4) The level of ahistoricality in the Marines being anything like elite during the Civil War has been stated. But "can make amphibitious assaults", plus regular infantry stats, could be damn useful. But it would be too wildly out of place to make them elite. I cannot emphasis this enough.

    5) Its up to you. We'll see in playtesting.

    6) I'm going to check this and update the post after seeing if its been done. I presume ToT and MPG are the same here, whichever you're using.

    Edit: According to the readme for a scenario (Dungeon: Heroes of Beckhorn): Spell units can
    be stored in towns. mage towers, or they can be stored on wizard units. Unfortunately CIV2 doesn't let you treat land units as "real" carriers so you
    | will need to move all of your spell units onto the wizard every turn; they won't travel with him/her (sorry!).

    So, it is possible, its just a bit of a hassle. Worth it if what those missiles are is useful, however.

    7) I would use Cavalry and Mounted Infantry (Infantry with greater movement and cost) for the North. For the Confederacy...Cavalry, Mounted Infantry, Partisan Rangers (weaker stats, faster movement), and Irregular Cavalry (Slightly weaker stats than regular cavalry. Lack of discipline bites).

    Cavalry may or may not have been better armed than infantry, in some respects , but the war consistently indicates that infantry alone could hold off a cavalry charge. Rifles are too murderously effective. That is not to say cavalry should be useless. But it was not a good primary battle arm.

    Artillery as in light or horse (which is just a more mobile form of light) can be represented by one unit. Civ doesn't represent the tactical details well enough for it to be worth making a bigger distinction.

    Siege Artillery works fine as Heavy Artillery (as written). The heavy artillery regiments in forts are best done by a "fort" unit.

    A note: I'd give all cities city walls (and make units other than cavalry ignore city walls). Reason? Population being dropped when a city is attacked doesn't make sense. It may or may not fit elsewhere. But not here.

    Comment


    • #32
      Thanks for your opinions

      I´m thinking that I will use the following units for the Union:

      US Infantry
      US Cavalry
      US Mounted Infantry
      US Heavy Artillery
      US Horse Artillery
      (The Artillery is for attacking good fortified cities. Strong attack points and weak defence. I will use the Horse Artillery instead of the Light Artillery)
      Zouaves (same stats as the US Infantry)
      US Marines (also same like US Infantry with amphibious attack)
      US Sharpshooters (Elite unit)

      Volunteers only available via event. Will have different attack and defence stats.

      Following units for the Confederacy:

      CS Infantry (Expensive)
      Partisan Rangers
      CS Mounted Infantry
      Irregular Cavalry
      Zouaves
      Sharpshooters (elite unit)

      I like the idea of giving the South only Artillery via event. So they will get the same like the North.

      The South will get much more Volunteers via event than the North

      Important cities will be protected by fortified Artillery units. Maybe a fort unit like you wrote.

      Great idea with the city walls. I never thought about this...
      American War of Independence
      A Divided Nation - US Civilwar

      Comment


      • #33
        Cavalry may or may not have been better armed than infantry, in some respects , but the war consistently indicates that infantry alone could hold off a cavalry charge. Rifles are too murderously effective. That is not to say cavalry should be useless. But it was not a good primary battle arm.
        well i was talking about Union cavalry mostly. the sharps carbines made them effective at the defense, most famously Buford at gettysburg. i wasn't really talkign about cavalry charges but look what Sherdian did with his cavalry corps and Wilson with his to Forrest, you can't deny cavalry was effectively used for offenses, at least strategcially. but to quote Sheridan (not literally): "it is my opinion that infantry should only fight infantry and cavalry should only fight cavalry".

        Comment


        • #34
          I wouldn't say cavalry was never effective...after all as you said look at Buford. That, however, was a delaying action, which is virtually impossible to represent with Civ's combat engine. (Since Buford's division, as the "loser", was not destroyed.)

          But as I recall, the Sharps, while wonderful as a breechloader, did have a shorter range than the infantry rifle. So it doesn't wind up as a good "stand up and fight" unit on equal terms.

          Sheridan's accomplishments are highly overrated. There's a good book describing why and how if you'd like a recommendation.

          Wilson to Forrest is cavalry on cavalry, so its not showing how well or badly it stands up to infantry.

          I'd say "Light" instead of "Horse". Or "Field", even. Not too important, though.

          ...um, what is the difference between "Infantry" and "Volunteers", here? As stated, the overwhelming majority of infantry (or cavalry, not necessarily artillery for the North, but infantry or cavalry for both...and the CSA had virtually nothing as far as regulars go) were volunteer units. Am I missing something?

          Partisan Rangers as a unit...hm. Honestly, and I don't mean this as a moral judgment (that applies to some but not all such units), their effectiveness was more like brigands than cavalry.

          So I'd do regular cavalry for the South as well as the North. Perhaps have a few invisible-until-it-attacks (If using ToT) partisan rangers, but not many.

          Regular artillery should be something you can make in the South, just not the siege guns.

          Otherwise, I think its good.

          Comment


          • #35
            Couple of comments about the unit choices:

            The US Artillery was divided into three groupings: Heavy Artillery manned big fixed emplacement and siege guns, and rarely took the field (sometimes did as infantry units); Light Artillery was field arty and was further subdivided into field and 'flying' arty (the latter were the equivalent of European horse arty.

            Mounted infantry as distinct from cavary units were rare. Cavalry often fought dismounted as on the opening day at Gettysburg.

            There were several 'elite' formations which would be worth including as one-off 'colour' units (perhaps awarded by events?). The Iron Brigade was perhaps the most celebrated of these.

            Although zouave units were just infantry 'with fancy uniforms', several regiments like the 5th NY became crack outfits. It maybe worth reflecting this in their stats.

            The vast majority of both armies were 'volunteers'. The regular army at the outset of the conflict was tiny and largely remained in the west convincing the Native Americans of the righteousness of America's manifest destiny....

            There should be a CS cavalry unit, as distinct from 'irregular cav. For the first year or two the South fielded far better cavalry than the North, a situation which changed as the war progressed and leaders like Custer and Sheriden made their mark.

            EDIT: cross-post with Elensar, so some of the his points are repeated
            http://sleague.apolyton.net/index.ph...ory:Civ2_Units

            Comment


            • #36
              I may have a swollen head, but there's not room for my brain and you at the same time, Fairline! : p

              Artillery: Yep, yep. I'd make it possible to drag heavy artillery (as artillery) out in the field, though. There were a few occasions of it.

              Cavalry: Indeed. "Often fought dismounted" is hard to weigh. The truth is that in the real war, it could do both. In the game, I would rather represent it as raiders than infantry sluggers.

              Elite units: Oh yeah. Not sure how best to represent it, but they should be available. Even if just a generic "Elite Infantry" (rather than an "Iron Brigade" unit), though preferably not.

              Zouaves: Agreed, but the degree that they achieved status as elite units is no better than the degree that any other volunteer units did. So I'm not in favor of giving them better stats.

              CS Cavalry and Sheridan: Fairline, Tiemuzhen, get a copy of Eric Wittenberg's book "Little Phil: A Reassessment of The Civil War Leadership of General Philip H. Sheridan." Sheridan was...not a good cavalry commander. Damned aggressive and commande some fine units, mind. That would be what matters in this game, I think.

              Otherwise, as said. Stay outta my head. : p

              Glad to know we think alike though. As an admirerer of you as a Civ fan, I feel kind of flattered.

              Comment


              • #37
                yeah i have some of the books by Wittenberg. whether Sherdian was good or not i can't tell, afaik he was originally not from the Cav branch but he was nevertheless a sucessfull commander. i don't have that particular book but there are mixed opinions on it. the author has also mentioned several times hat Forrest is overrated in his opinion, which is arguably not the mainstream opinion.

                the main difference between cavalry and mount inf is that mount inf had no sabres and could not be used like true cavalry. i'm not sure if the Union even had mounted infantry but the CSA definately had such units as distinct form cavalry. i haven't read much of it yet, but judging by the plates, Ron Fields in his 6 volume osprey books on the Conf Army suggests that most early cavalry units were true cavalry, armed with sabres & pistols only.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Elensar
                  I may have a swollen head, but there's not room for my brain and you at the same time, Fairline! : p


                  Artillery: Yep, yep. I'd make it possible to drag heavy artillery (as artillery) out in the field, though. There were a few occasions of it.
                  There were also instances, as with the 'Swamp Angel' (?) and Dictator mortar at the siege of Vicksburg, of heavy artillery being used to invest fortifications, so I guess (slow) moveable heavy arty would be OK.

                  Cavalry: Indeed. "Often fought dismounted" is hard to weigh. The truth is that in the real war, it could do both. In the game, I would rather represent it as raiders than infantry sluggers.
                  Agreed - they were not equipped or trained to put up the same kind of fight dismounted as an infantry regt.

                  Elite units: Oh yeah. Not sure how best to represent it, but they should be available. Even if just a generic "Elite Infantry" (rather than an "Iron Brigade" unit), though preferably not.
                  Agreed.

                  Zouaves: Agreed, but the degree that they achieved status as elite units is no better than the degree that any other volunteer units did. So I'm not in favor of giving them better stats.
                  True enough.

                  CS Cavalry and Sheridan: Fairline, Tiemuzhen, get a copy of Eric Wittenberg's book "Little Phil: A Reassessment of The Civil War Leadership of General Philip H. Sheridan." Sheridan was...not a good cavalry commander. Damned aggressive and commande some fine units, mind. That would be what matters in this game, I think.
                  Leaving Sheridan to one side, the performance of the Union cavalry in 1864-5 was markedly better than 1861-2.

                  Otherwise, as said. Stay outta my head. : p

                  Glad to know we think alike though. As an admirerer of you as a Civ fan, I feel kind of flattered.
                  http://sleague.apolyton.net/index.ph...ory:Civ2_Units

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    The Union had a few mounted infantry units. The most famous was Wilder's "Lightning Brigade" in the Army of the Cumberland, which was armed with Spencer repeating rifles. But that was a very unusual case. Using this as "typical" for anything would be a bad idea. It is, however, an example of mounted infantry.

                    Mind, the Confederacy didn't have all that many either.

                    Sheridan and Forrest, if Wittenberg is correct (and I have no reason to believe he isn't, unconventional viewpoint or not), are overrated, though one must note (in regards to Forrest) that "overrated" is a far cry from "inept". He was still good at what he did do well, he just wasn't (in reality) worth considering a legendary horseman. Still, we wander off topic here. Interesting subject, but not relevant to scenario design.

                    1864-1865 Union cavalry performance: Agreed, and I'd include 1863 in there to some extent as well. Whoever or whatever is the reason, it had finally gotten the hang of things.

                    One of the problems with representing the Civil War in the civ game is representing how the vast majority of battles were only incidently to take cities, or as part of a campaign to take a city.

                    One thing that I would say is vital is to use the airbases-as-"stackable" idea used in (among other scenarios?) Frederick the Great.

                    Another thing is to find a way to represent how attacking defending units goes from damn hard (1861-1863) to "gooooood luck" (1864). I say 1864 since the war was basically over by the end of that year.

                    That brings up a question. Regardless of how turns are handled, how long should the scenario last? Lincoln, in our world, had four years as a given (more or less) and the possibility of another four.

                    However, were the war going poorly enough for him not to be reelected, I'm not sure a new president (McClellan? God have mercy on the Union...) would be able to salvage things.

                    One thing that would not be a bad idea, though due to their (relative) rarity I wouldn't want to have them be recruitable (though if zouaves are, fine by me) that should be present for the Union, potentially at least...

                    The USCT. Or for those bad on abreviations: The United States Colored Troops.

                    If zouaves are worth representing, black soldiers are.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      A very interesting discussion about how the cavalry was used during the civilwar.

                      How should I use them in my scenario?
                      Btw. I was thinking about to make a new units file for each year of war, like Curt did in his latest Dictator scenario. At the end of the war, especially the Southern troops were very weak and not good trained. Also their equipment was very bad.

                      Do you think this could make sense for my scenario?
                      American War of Independence
                      A Divided Nation - US Civilwar

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        I would say, within the limits of the ability of the Civ game engine to represent tactical details...cavalry is basically "hit and run" raiders. Regular cavalry units (or mounted infantry) might stand up to infantry. But that maybe is not very good. Will this limit the number of cavalry units players recruit? It should! Pennsylvania (to use one example) formed 20-odd cavalry regiments. It formed over 150 infantry regiments. There are other reasons for this as well, but it should say something.

                        Regarding unit quality...

                        Honestly, no. While the thought is appealing, having units become weaker in 1864 "because they did historically" runs the very real risk of being completely out of touch with how the real war happened.

                        One thing that's possible, though it requires an inaccessible and unusable city for the Confederacy.

                        Give the city Leonardo's Workshop.

                        If the Confederacy in some way or another is failing and it recieves a technology that reflects that ("Confederate collapse." lets say)

                        Standard Confederate units become obscelete when this technology is discovered, and are "upgraded" (I hope there's a way to rewrite the pop up message.) to weaker forms.

                        Should the Confederacy situation get even worse, same thing.

                        I'm not sure how easy it would be to make this work in a way that looks right, but it seems the best way, so far as triggering collapse goes, to represent it.

                        One thing to note, of course. To be honest, the Union troops also suffered a serious drop in quality in 1864, as many of the three year veteran troops left and were replaced by more reluctant soldiers...and in Virginia, Grant's decision to send the heavy artillery regiments out to fight as infantry. Big regiments. Absolutely huge. But while well drilled, they were as green as grass, and got butchered.

                        So I'd rather not try and represent all this. There's no good clean way to represent a steady decline as something that could happen, but may or may not (After all, it is possible, if unlikely, that the South would have all but won its independence by the end of 1863).

                        In brief, the idea makes sense in theory, but executing it in a way that would work would be far harder, for more than one reason.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          If anything, you should go for the reverse; the regiments at the outset of the war were of a pretty poor standard compared to 1862-3. At Manassas/Bull Run it was a case of whichever side broke first would lose the battle, and I guess the deciding factor was superior leadership on the Confederate side.

                          It would be interesting to try and model this - the majority of the trained West Point field officers sided with the Confederacy, giving them an early tactical edge, whilst the majority of the pre-war logistics corps officers sided with the Union, giving them a decided edge in terms of supplying and equipping the troops (coupled of course with the overwhelming industrial capacity of the Northern states).
                          http://sleague.apolyton.net/index.ph...ory:Civ2_Units

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Indeed. 1861 for all intents and purposes should be only important for getting things going and begining for the serious war.

                            I am not sure that the majority of West Point field officers sided with the Confederacy. But I can't recall any exact figures. It would be interesting to get the statistics on field vs. staff decisions to stay loyal. Not counting officers who had resigned their commissions prior to 1860, if possible.

                            One thing that has to be emphasised on Confederate generalship, so far as how it compared to the Union.

                            Lee, on a scale of 1-10, with 1 being Varro at Cannae and 10 being Hannibal, was an eight or so. Maybe.

                            Bragg was a 5 or so. Give or take.

                            Treating "the generals of the Confederacy" as better because of Lee and his best subordinates is like treating "the guns of the Army of Northern Virginia" as more technologically advanced because it had two Whitworth cannon.

                            Still, the South, even in the Western Theater, would not have lasted three years if it had been facing great generals. (1865 is "how long until they surrender", there was virtually no hope at this point)

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              @Elensar:
                              This is a good idea with the Leonardo wonder. When the southern troops failed a major battle, there troops will be "downgrade" to the weaker versions.
                              With the text there is no problem. In the game.txt file I can change it. Only thing is when the Leonardo-effect should be happen?
                              I thought about to make it when the battle of Gettysburg was. At the beginning under Union rule, Lee captured the city and the Union troops liberate it.
                              I´ve read that the Gettysburg battle was a major battle for both sides. They told that it was like a collapse for the Southern troops, because their nothern campaign complete failed and the Union had no problems to get deep into the south. Please correct me if I´m not right

                              @Fairline:
                              You think I should give both sides weaker troops at the beginning? Maybe to reflect that many Generals fought for the South their troops were a little bit stronger than their nothern pendants.

                              I think in the mittle of the war, 1863, both sides had their strongest armies, later they all became weaker and weaker. Like you said, many veterans ended their fights and went back to their families. New ones without any battle experiences came.
                              I´ve read that especially the volunteers regiments were dissolved after four or five month of fighting.
                              American War of Independence
                              A Divided Nation - US Civilwar

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                It was a fairly ugly defeat for the Army of Northern Virginia (roughly a third of Lee's forces were casualties), but it was not...in and of itself...a great defeat for the Confederacy on the whole.

                                Explaining how and why could get complicated.

                                But briefly, while Lee's army was severely injured, it was not destroyed, and the outcome of the campaign merely drove Lee's army back into Virginia, it did not weaken the South in the sense say, the fall of Vicksburg did.

                                I'd say, if this is for ToT, what would be good is to have some sort of trigger. I'm not familar with how events work, but I believe you could set it up so that if much of the South has been captured, it is set off. Someone more familar with ToT's events can probably figure out how you'd do that.


                                Regarding troop quality peaking:
                                Yeah, 1863 was (other than for the regiments shrunk into nigh uselessness...the Irish Brigade at Gettysburg, for instance, is at 532 men...in five "regiments".) probably the best year of the war. So to speak.

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