John or anyone, request addtl info about @sec map params

[tobyr]

The strategy guide warns us not to play with the @secondary_maps parameters, and only vaguely says what they are for. I realize that it may be difficult to explain what they do, but here is a question that could be answered usefully:

The last nine numbers in each line are triplets that set the desired length, min length, frequency for each map. Another triplet, preceding these, sets the probability of three types of terrain. I would like to know what KINDS of numbers these are.

To explain what I don't know, here are some wildly conflicting possibilities -- a triplet 1,3,9 means:

(A) RELATIVE CHANCE -- the third possibility is 9 times more likely than the first, or perhaps will happen 9/13 of the time.

(B) denominators: the third thing is 1/9th likely to occur, the first is a certainty (1/1).

(C) offsets a bell curve: randomly generate numbers ranging from 1 to 9, centered on 3, to use as a parameter.

(D) The numbers should all range from 0 to, say, 99 and have no meaning if larger. Each is a separate probability of something.

(E) Each number in the triplet has a separate function of some sort.

(F) etc., I'd like a clue?!?!

ALSO: which of the last four triplets affects the cloud map?

If we known what it MEANS to set these numbers, we can reasonably play with them to figure out what they affect. Since the map terrain generation is heavily randomized, it is difficult to guess the parameters mean without some additional info.

Tnx in advance!
- toby


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toby robison
criticalpaths@mindspring.com

[John Possidente]

Let me think a minute. (Now I wish I hadn't archived all my design notes.)

What the triplets control depends on the type of map. For example, on a Space map (SF), the appropriate triplet controls the platforms; desired length is the median platform size, min length sets the minimum size, and frequency determines how many platforms there will be. All of these, naturally, are subject to the randomness of the map building process. Continuing the same example, one of the other triplets controls the bridges sticking out of the platforms. Desired length and min length are obvious; frequency (0-3 = 1-4) sets the optimum number of bridges per platform.

Unfortunately, each map type has its own set of active triplets, and each triplet has its individual range of acceptable entries. (The frequency for bridges is 0-3, for instance, while the frequency for platforms has a larger range.) I'll dig up my notes on this soon and try to give you more details, but things are a-changing in John land right now, and it might take me a while.

[tobyr]

John,
Let's see if I understand, using an example: Here is the secondary map entry for undersea:

1, 70,90, 3,2 0,0,0,0, 9,4,30, 15,10,50, 0,0,0,

Does "9,4,30" mean:
The desired length of coral is 9, minimum length is 4, frequency is 30?

And then "15,10,15" is the desired, minimum and frequency of vents?

I would apprciate info on the acceptable ranges of frequency values, and I guess it's also possible to experiment.

Tnx,
toby


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toby robison
criticalpaths@mindspring.com

[tobyr]

John,

I'm sorry I did not ask about these parameters before you archived your notes. I'd like to clarify my request, based on your previous (actually helful) response:

I would love to know:

(1) The legal range of values for each of these parameters, for each type of map.
(2) for each parameter, whether a larger number means "more" or "less". (for example, I suspect that the "chance of a bridge" occurring is LESS for a higher number.)
(3) Which maps ignore which parameters altogether. OR (same thing) which parameters affect which maps.

With the above info, I think I can figure out what some of the params do, despite the great degree of randomization in map creation; without this info, I give up.

Tnx in advance,
- toby


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toby robison
criticalpaths@mindspring.com

[John Possidente]

Well, I can give you some of it. Hope it's enough.

(1) I don't know. I'll try to look it up, and if I can find it, I'll post it here.

(2) If I remember correctly, larger numbers always mean "more". So, for the bridges, 0 means that, on the average (random factor), each platform has one bridge (base 1/4 chance per corner). Thus, 3 means four bridges on average (base 4/4 chance per corner).

(3) This I have to look up, so it's the same answer as #1.

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful, but if I can find my notes (my office is an awful mess right now) I will post the info I have.

[William Keenan]

@Secondary Maps:
... The special characteristics of the "secondary" maps (Maps 1 through 3) randomly generated by the game are hard-coded, but this code is to a large extent controlled by the values in this section. Using this, you can turn your extra maps into worlds similar to those in the Fantasy and Science Fiction Games.
Each of the three entries (There must be three, no matter how many maps you actually have in your scenario) controls the overall layout of the terrain in one of the secondary maps - in order. (That is, the first line controls Map 1, the second Map 2, and the last Map3.) We'll briefly go over the uses of each field in the following list and you can discover the rest for yourself....

0. Map Type: This value puts the map into one of the predefined categories that define the overall character of the world.

The possible map categories are

1. Submerged (merfolk)
2. Subterranean (Underworld)
3. Floating (Clouds, Orbit)
4. Land Dominant (Naumachia)
5. Gas Giant (Nona)
6. Standard Civ II (Earth)

1. Blob Size: For maps of type 3 and five, which are normally mostly ocean, this defines the average size of the "blobs" of land. This value has no other effect on other types of maps.

2. Blobs: For maps of type 3 and 5, this defines the average number of blobs of land. Each time a map of this type is generated, a random factor is introduced to determine the actual number. This value has no effect on other types of maps.

3. Bridge Length: For maps of type 3 and 5, this defines the average length of the land "bridges" that stick out near the corners of the land blobs. A 0 (zero) prevents bridges from appearing at all. This value has no effect on other types of maps.

4. Bridges/Blobs: For maps of type 3 and 5, this defines the average number (1 to 4) of bridges attached to each land blob. A 0 (zero) prevents any bridges from appearing at all. This value has no effect on other types of maps.

5. Blue Rooms: Roughly defines the number of Blue Rooms that appear on subterranean maps. No effect on other types of maps.

6. Ice Rooms: Roughly controls the number of Ice Rooms that appear on subterranean maps. No effect on other types of maps.

7. Fire Chambers: This number roughly determines the number of fire chambers that appear on subterrainean maps. No effect on other types of maps.

8. Storms. This number controls the average number of storms that appear on Gas Giant maps. It has no effect on other types of maps.

9-11 Desired Length: This set, and the next two sets, of valueshave varying effects depending on the type of map they're applied to. In very general terms, this first set defines the optimum length of the chains of multi-tiled terrain types (Hil, Mou, For) that are appropriate to the type of map being defined.

12-14. Maximum Length: In very general terms, this group of values sets the maximum length of the "chains" of multi-tiled terrain types (Hil, Mou, For) that are appropriate to the type of map being defined. See Desired Length.

15-17. Frequency: In very general terms, this last set controls how often "chains" of multi-tiled terrain types (Hil, Mou, For) that are appropriate to the type of map being defined appear. See Desired Length.

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From Prima's Strategy Guide for Civilization II: Test of Time by John Possidente and Dave Ellis. Copyright Prima Publishing and Hasbro Interactive 1999.
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[tobyr]

William, thanks for filling in this info for everybody, and clarifying the two bridge parameters for me. Now once again I will note that I am asking for additional information not included in the strategy guide nor the rules.txt comments. I realize I will be lucky to get this info, and very appreciative if John can dig it up, but it is the info needed to begin trying to guess what one can do with these parameters:

For those last three triplets, identified by William's note as 9-11, 12-24, and 15-17: Which maps do they affect, and what are the permissible values that can be used, other than zero, for each of the values, for each of these maps?

Tnx,
toby



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toby robison
criticalpaths@mindspring.com

[John Possidente]

Ahh! Now I understand the question. Sorry for being so dense.

In the original Civ II, certain types of terrain are built in "chains". Not to get too deep into how the code works, but suffice to say that mountains, forests, and hills are placed on the map in such a way as to make natural-seeming groupings (rather than randomly placed blots here and there).

Those last three triplets affect whatever terrain type on the particular map needs to be built in this fashion. For example (if memory serves), on the Gas Giant type, it's the storms and the rooms. Others I recall are the Blue Rooms, Ice Chambers, anad Fire Chambers. The best way to figure out which it is is to see what terrain is in the slots for Forest, Mountains, and Hills. Generally, we found it easier to put chained terrain into the already defined "chained" types than to reprogramm things.

As for ranges, now that I've had time to think, I realize that we never had defined limits on them. Starting from an average value in the 20-30 range, we simply worked by trial and error (and lots of testing) to settle on values that seemed the best balance for each map type. I know that negative numbers are forbidden, but I'm afraid you'll have to find the maximums yourself. Good luck!