RED FRONT ToT REDUX

[MacGalleo]

@John
I have received and read very carefully to your analysis. They will be very useful to me to improve my change. Thank you very much.
I am working on these changes, I'll test it and I'll inform you as soon as possible.

[PietH]

Sorry to jump into a discussion/development that has been going on for several years apparantly, but I really like some clarification on certain aspects of this, really great looking, project.

I only picked up Civ II TOT very recently (again, after a loooong time). I was looking for a strategic WWII game, and couldn't find a good recent option. So I ended up looking at Civ again, and have been playing Curt Sibling's dictator6 scenario with great pleasure. I also came across this thread, and decided to give this one a go as well.

Mind you, I'm not the brightest of minds, and an avarage civ player at best, and this scenario is driving me nuts with frustration since I keep losing. But since I'm also pretty stubborn I'm still trying to make something of this.
Lesson 1: read the Readme, which helped a bit. And I looked for info in this thread of course, which is the reason for my post.

So I have some questions, and some experiences I like to share here. Please note that I have no clue about how game development, or how Event files and such work. Nor do I know where to see how many units the Russians and the Germans have. So forgive my ignorance and hopefully you can help me out a bit here.

Before I get more into my experiences with the gameplay, I have some questions about the setup of the game. Because for some reason, I managed to have two redfront.scn files in my folder. One is just redfront.scn, the other redfront1-5.scn. They both lead to a slightly different redfront game. And to make matters more confusing, the one named redfront.scn seems to be the 1.5 version… The differences aren’t that big apparently: one has refugees and no building of labor, the other one has 3 strategically places SU122’s at the start. Stuff like that. Haven’t checked out all differences in gameplay.

I have been playing the redfront.scn game (with the 1.5 update starting screen). Is the download at the start of this thread the latest playable version with adjustments that are discussed later on in the thread? For your information, I played on King level, which up to know is more than I can handle. As a test, I also downloaded Agricola’s save he posted here. That raised some interesting points and more questions as well.

The game itself is very interesting. I’m used to playing aggressively, and that can’t be done in the early stages of the game. That requires a whole new approach to reaching your goals. It does require a lot of micromanagement, tweeking every city to the max every turn. For someone as lazy as I am, that is less my style. But being so hard to beat, it makes for very entertaining gameplay.



As for the game;
Questions:
-How does the game replace units? Is it on a 1:1 basis, or on a 1:many basis? Or an even amount of new units are spawned each turn? The principle that an enemy unit killed is automatically replaced by more or a stronger enemy unit is a bit depressing. An even amount of units created per turn seems to be the closest thing to reality, where production wasn't dependent on the number of casualties.
-What use have the 6 or so trade convoys that are stacked in the lower right corner during the game? They can’t move and serve no purpose, as far as I can tell. But of course I could be wrong there.
-Do the Balkan partisans that come up later in the game actually tie up German forces in the game, or are they just some historically accurate thing?
-I have gotten the announcement that ‘the war between Germany and the US is now over’ on some occasions. Does that affect the game? I furthest game I played was until September ’44. There was no mention of a D-Day event. Is that not in the game?
-There are too many ‘too many units’ messages in the game. Unlike some players, I have no idea where to find the number of active units in the game, so I can’t anticipate on it by changing my gameplay or so. Where can you see that info? Does the AI suffer the same problem, or only the human player? If both sides can’t spawn new units, the pain is on both sides and maybe slightly more bearable.
-In one of the Ural towns, I get a free Cossack unit every turn. Does it serve any purpose; do they get an upgrade later?

Based on this, some thoughts/recommendations on the gameplay. I have no idea if these are viable ideas, or would negatively impact the balance of the game, but still:

-The force of the Luftwaffe is far too strong in my opinion. Especially the stuka's. Like Agricola, the number of stuka's I've had to deal with, pounding away my 40+ garrisons in one turn (including 6 vet AA) are amazing. Their range is far too long, roaming the Russian inland and attacking cities that are nowhere near the front. Which is not how the Stuka's were used I think. So in my view I would drastically reduce their range, so that they would be forced to be near the front, only to attack the front.
-The Karl's are a ***** (as they should be). I'm not asking for its power to be reduced, but the 'treats all squares as road squares' seems a bit over the top. Even after pillaging the roads to Krasnodar, they float over the mountains and kick my ass. For a (more or less) railroad bound unit, that seems too much honour.
-If not already in the game, a D-Day event would be nice. Especially if it would mean that the Germans would have to spread their resources, so less new/experienced units on the eastern front.
-The number of Uboats seem to be higher then necessary for good gameplay (especially with the ‘too many units’ message in mind). At one point in a game, I received help from the ‘HMS Prince of Wales (or some other prince or duke character). I attacked and destroyed what turned out to be a stack of 15 subs and other German ships. Besides the fact that they where back in full force the next turn, that seems to be some overkill in the number of units, desperately needed elsewhere.
-Get rid of the Balkan partisans if they do not affect the gameplay in a major way, to free up more units.

So far some random rambling. I probably can come up with more while playing, I should try and write them down while in the game. Sorry for the long read.

In another post I will come back on my experience (and steep learning curve) while playing Agricola’s saved game.

[AGRICOLA]

Originally posted by PietH
Before I get more into my experiences with the gameplay, I have some questions about the setup of the game. Because for some reason, I managed to have two redfront.scn files in my folder.

Glad to hear that you have returned to Civ2 after a loooong time. Things have advanced a great deal, especially in the art of scenario making and the quality of scens.

First of all, delete all your current Red Front TOT files and folders and start afresh. Neither Colwyn's version nor the the one that MacGalleo is developing has been properly playtested so you are bound to find problems.

If you have Civ2 MGE, you can download Captain Nemo's RF 1.4 (the granddaddy of all Red Fronts) from

http://sleague.apolyton.net/index.php?title=Red_Front

and Colwyn's RF 1.5 from

http://spanish.apolyton.net/index.html

Put them in separate, clearly labelled folders. They are different games and cannot be mixed. RF 1.5 is much more difficult than RF 1.4. Don't play it first. From your description, you HAVE been playing RF 1.5 TOT.

The attached zip contains 3 files on Red Front 1.4 strategy. You may find them helpful.

How does the game replace units? Is it on a 1:1 basis, or on a 1:many basis? Or an even amount of new units are spawned each turn?

There is some of all 3.

What use have the 6 or so trade convoys that are stacked in the lower right corner during the game?

Be patient, an exit will open up at the appropriate time.

Do the Balkan partisans that come up later in the game actually tie up German forces in the game, or are they just some historically accurate thing?

Historical accuracy. They accomplish next to nothing.

I have gotten the announcement that ‘the war between Germany and the US is now over’ on some occasions. Does that affect the game? I furthest game I played was until September ’44. There was no mention of a D-Day event. Is that not in the game?

This is a glitch. D-Day is not in game directly. Allied bombing and troops in Italy is as far as the scen goes with D-Day.

There are too many ‘too many units’ messages in the game. Unlike some players, I have no idea where to find the number of active units in the game, so I can’t anticipate on it by changing my gameplay or so. Where can you see that info? Does the AI suffer the same problem, or only the human player? If both sides can’t spawn new units, the pain is on both sides and maybe slightly more bearable.

Use CHEAT/SET HUMAN PLAYER/DEFENSE MINISTER to check OOB for all civs. If too many units, nobody spawns nothin'.

In one of the Ural towns, I get a free Cossack unit every turn. Does it serve any purpose; do they get an upgrade later?

Can't remember.

The force of the Luftwaffe is far too strong in my opinion. Especially the stuka's. Like Agricola, the number of stuka's I've had to deal with, pounding away my 40+ garrisons in one turn (including 6 vet AA) are amazing. Their range is far too long, roaming the Russian inland and attacking cities that are nowhere near the front. Which is not how the Stuka's were used I think. So in my view I would drastically reduce their range, so that they would be forced to be near the front, only to attack the front.

Don't be too hasty on that. It is the Stukas that provide at least 50% of the German's offensive power in '41. In RF 1.4 and 1.5 they are not nearly as overwhelming as in RF 1.4 TOT where they were too strong.

The Karl's are a ***** (as they should be). I'm not asking for its power to be reduced, but the 'treats all squares as road squares' seems a bit over the top. Even after pillaging the roads to Krasnodar, they float over the mountains and kick my ass. For a (more or less) railroad bound unit, that seems too much honour.

They need x-country ability to do much good.

If not already in the game, a D-Day event would be nice. Especially if it would mean that the Germans would have to spread their resources, so less new/experienced units on the eastern front.

The designers do their best to make scens as historically accurate as they can using some pretty limited tools. There are bound to be compromises with historical accuracy.

The number of Uboats seem to be higher then necessary for good gameplay (especially with the ‘too many units’ message in mind). At one point in a game, I received help from the ‘HMS Prince of Wales (or some other prince or duke character). I attacked and destroyed what turned out to be a stack of 15 subs and other German ships. Besides the fact that they where back in full force the next turn, that seems to be some overkill in the number of units, desperately needed elsewhere.

With the right play, U-boats are no problem.

Get rid of the Balkan partisans if they do not affect the gameplay in a major way, to free up more units.

If you feel strongly about this, you can always remove the spawning event from EVENTS.

In another post I will come back on my experience (and steep learning curve) while playing Agricola’s saved game.

I would suggest you try the scorched earth and partisans strategy as the simplest and easiest way to win RF 1.4. House rules block that strategy in RF 1.5 and in the TOT versions.

Have fun and good hunting.

[AGRICOLA]

Colwyn has been looking for someone to playtest his RF 1.5 TOT. Are you interested? He will appreciate any feedback.


Forgot the !@#$%&) attachment.

[PietH]

Originally posted by AGRICOLA Glad to hear that you have returned to Civ2 after a loooong time. Things have advanced a great deal, especially in the art of scenario making and the quality of scens.

thanks. A lot of difference indeed. I initially was just looking for the WWII scenario included in the original CIV II game, so I was pleasantly surprised to find these developments.

First of all, delete all your current Red Front TOT files and folders and start afresh. Neither Colwyn's version nor the the one that MacGalleo is developing has been properly playtested so you are bound to find problems.

If you have Civ2 MGE, you can download Captain Nemo's RF 1.4 (the granddaddy of all Red Fronts) from

http://sleague.apolyton.net/index.php?title=Red_Front

and Colwyn's RF 1.5 from

http://spanish.apolyton.net/index.html

Put them in separate, clearly labelled folders. They are different games and cannot be mixed. RF 1.5 is much more difficult than RF 1.4. Don't play it first. From your description, you HAVE been playing RF 1.5 TOT.

The attached zip contains 3 files on Red Front 1.4 strategy. You may find them helpful.

I (unknowingly) only got a copy of Civ II TOT, so I guess the MGE scenarios won't run? But there are two versions of 1.5 in development? Is Colwyn's version more final? Is there a 1.4 TOT version? I guess I made a mess of things. If only 1.5 will run with me, I guess I will have to put my pride aside and start at the easiest level first and hope that will get me anywhere.
I don't mind playing an unfinished game if it helps develop it though. But since I know nothing about game development, I'm not sure it will help.

But yes, I'd like to test Colwyn's scenario.

And I will study the strategy files, thanks!

There is some of all 3.

I was afraid of that

Be patient, an exit will open up at the appropriate time.

That's not one of my better qualities, but I guess there isn't much choice.

Historical accuracy. They accomplish next to nothing.

ok, that's what I reckoned.

Use CHEAT/SET HUMAN PLAYER/DEFENSE MINISTER to check OOB for all civs. If too many units, nobody spawns nothin'.

Thanks!

Don't be too hasty on that. It is the Stukas that provide at least 50% of the German's offensive power in '41. In RF 1.4 and 1.5 they are not nearly as overwhelming as in RF 1.4 TOT where they were too strong.

A lot of my comments come from my frustration of getting beaten by the damn game. In 1942 they are just as lethal or maybe more so than in 1941.

The designers do their best to make scens as historically accurate as they can using some pretty limited tools. There are bound to be compromises with historical accuracy.

Like I said, I have no idea about scenario building and it's limitations.

With the right play, U-boats are no problem.

touche

I would suggest you try the scorched earth and partisans strategy as the simplest and easiest way to win RF 1.4. House rules block that strategy in RF 1.5 and in the TOT versions.

Have fun and good hunting.

thanks for taking the time to help me out, really appreciate it..
About that saved game of yours, on what level was that? Did you tweak it in any way to make it a different game? And did you also have German p47 thunderbolts attacking?

[fairline]

Originally posted by PietH
..... Is there a 1.4 TOT version?

See page 1 of this thread for the Catfish ToT version of Captain Nemo's final version of RF (v1.4). There's also a graphics upgrade to go with it.

[AGRICOLA]

At the risk of sounding dogmatic and turning you off on CIV II, I warn you again that neither version of RF TOT is playable.

I speak with complete certainty about the version being developed in this thread. MacGalleo is still working on the 'too many units' problem as well as some events that either cause problems or don't do the intended job.

I am less certain about Colwyn's 1.5 TOT version ( download file RAR 6448_Redfront15tot ) but when I unzip and load it, the Soviet player cannot build Refugees, the second most important unit in 1941. The unit does not appear on the city screen build list. You mention that 'one has refugees and no building of labor'. Are refugees buildable at the start of your game? If not, the scen is unplayable.

Re: 'About that saved game of yours, on what level was that? Did you tweak it in any way to make it a different game? And did you also have German p47 thunderbolts attacking?'

Deity; not until forced to in order to do a workaround for an unitended but insurmountable development problem; thank goodness, no.

In the game I posted, poke around in the minefield east of UK and you will find a cute little mousetrap that eliminated most of the German air and naval strength in southern Norway, including a couple of Battle Cruisers and half a dozen U-boats. You may also want to poke around a bit north of Petsamo.


In the long run, your best bet would be to obtain a copy of CIV II MGE, burn a backup disk, istall it, install the MGE 1.3 patch, and play Nemo's RF 1.4. BTW, have you installed the TOT 1.1 patch?

If, for the time being, you are stuck with only TOT, try El Awrens v.2, Frederick the Great or Lost Legions. The 3 scens are entirely different, extremely challenging, not too long and you don't need to move hundreds of units.

[PietH]

OK, this is getting confusing, and I must say that I have contributed to that here, so sorry about that.

But let me get this: several different RF TOT versions exist, in different stadia of development.
-The Catfish RF1.4 upgrade, downloadable in this thread at post #1.
-Colwyn's RF 1.5 version - downloadable at the spanish civ site
-MacGalleo 1.? version - downloadable at post #44 of this thread?

Is this correct?
So I have been playing Catfish's version, but also Colwyn's version. That's if that's the one where you can't build laborers at the beginning of the scenario, but a few blue truck refugees are already in the game.

About the Agricola saved game, i was surprised to see German p47's attacking. Along with the Stukas, the HE111's and the ME109s, that was a bit much. But it was interesting to see how the defences were set up, how many strong defensive units were build in a year's time and how far many techs were researched. So I'll be looking into that save for hints and tips now and then.

I guess I'll just poke around in these, see what I encounter, and will not expect a full working/balanced version of the scenario. And if I want a full WWII game I'll stick with the Dictator6 scenario, which is also very enjoyable, playing as the russians. Thanks for the tip on the other scenarios, but at the moment I'm only interested in WWII scenarios. Max Hastings' interesting read 'Armageddon' brought me back to Civ to see how different war strategies can work out.

If you want me to look at new developments, playtest stuff, let me know and I'll be happy to do so.

[PietH]

Originally posted by AGRICOLA BTW, have you installed the TOT 1.1 patch?

I have no idea. I lost my original copy long ago, and I got the new game on an impuls, buying it online and downloading it, just this december. So no idea if this recent download version has the patch or not. How can I tell?

[AGRICOLA]

Download the patch from

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=59

Opening the file initiates the installation process. If the patch is already installed, you will get a series of messages asking if you want to overwrite existing files. I don't think it matters whether you overwrite or not.

But let me get this: several different RF TOT versions exist, in different stadia of development.
-The Catfish RF1.4 upgrade, downloadable in this thread at post #1.
-Colwyn's RF 1.5 version - downloadable at the spanish civ site
-MacGalleo 1.? version - downloadable at post #44 of this thread?

Is this correct?
So I have been playing Catfish's version, but also Colwyn's version. That's if that's the one where you can't build laborers at the beginning of the scenario, but a few blue truck refugees are already in the game.

That is correct. Confusing ain't it?

Laborers are not buildable in any of the versions until Dec 1941 when the RULES2 file replaces RULES1. The key question is whether the blue trucks (Refugees) can be built at the start. If not, the scen is unplayable. In my game, I had 250 of the little beggars at the start of the Soviet Dec turn and used every one of them.

[PietH]

Weird: when I download the patch (into my CivII Tot directory) and execute, it tells me I should have CivII tot installed first...

[AGRICOLA]

Try opening the patch when it is not in the TOT directory. That's what I did and it worked.

[PietH]

Did that too, same result. Doesn't matter I think. As far as I can tell the game is working fine.

[PietH]

Btw, how did your game progress, the save game you posted?

[fairline]

Originally posted by PietH
...But let me get this: several different RF TOT versions exist, in different stadia of development.
-The Catfish RF1.4 upgrade, downloadable in this thread at post #1.
-Colwyn's RF 1.5 version - downloadable at the spanish civ site
-MacGalleo 1.? version - downloadable at post #44 of this thread?

Is this correct?...

Almost

Just to be pedantic, RF1.4 is the original designer Captain Nemo's final version of the scenario, made for FW/MGE. Catfish converted this version to ToT without changing any elements of Nemo's rules or events, so it's a conversion rather than an upgrade.

Colwyn and MacGalleo have both made modifications to Nemo's events and rules. I've lost track of whether they started with Nemo's mge scenario and then made ToT conversions of their own modifications, or whether they started with Catfish's ToT conversion and based their mods on that. If it's the former, you can bet they've missed some important elements of ToT conversion which are not carried out by the Scotto ToT converter program...