WW2 Europe scenario - Atom Bomb needed?

[curtsibling]

Hi there, people!

I am working on a large European map version of Dictator, made from scratch, with new techs, events, etc....

This is for personal play, but I will release it if people want.

Anyway! One thing that I am mulling over is the choice to include the Atom Bomb...One side of me thinks, that the
USA would not have used the bomb in normal circumstances, but if things had got bad for the Allies, they might
have considered a bomb or two dropped on German targets...As my scen does have units that enter the 1946 era,
this might be suitable. But on the other hand should all civs be allowed to follow the Atom Bomb path?

We know historically that Germany had little realistic chance of making anything but a crude dirty bomb, despite
what WW2 myths tell us...So I figured keeping the bomb for the Allies, but giving the Axis a countering late-war
answer to lumbering B-29s (SDI = Wasserfall rockets)...

Options:

1) Ditch the Atom Bomb idea and use the slot for something else?
2) Make the Atom Bomb an allied invention, and give the Axis SDI?
3) Make the Atom Bomb available to all, if they attain the techs?

Any opinions on what route to take here?

[AGRICOLA]

1. Give the A-Bomb only to the U.S.
The U.S. was the only country in the early 40's that had the ability to undertake the cost and magnitude of the effort needed to produce U235. That alone put the technology beyond the reach of any other combatant.

I believe that Truman would not have hesitated to use the Bomb in '45 if the Allies had suffered a bloody repulse in Normandy in '44 as well as a failed subsequent invasion attempt. He always considered the decision to drop the Bomb on Japan to be automatic, if for no other reason (in my cynical view) than that the widows, orphans and mothers of U.S. casualties incurred in the invasion of Japan would have lynched him when they found out that the U.S. had a winning weapon that it did not use. The same argument applies to the Axis.

2. No SDI
I doubt that the Wasserfall could have been made operational before the early 50's, when the first U.S. and Soviet SAM sites were set up. In '45, NOBODY could defend against the BOMB, something that hasn't changed significantly in the subsequent 50 years.

3. Check out Marko Urm's STRUGGLE FOR EUROPE
Despite making the Poly list of best scens, this magnum opus with 80+ events and 60+ rules files, summer and winter terrain and beautifully simple file switching, is rather humdrum except for one thing. It handles winter and summer terrains about as well as Red Front.

The game map covers both Europe and North Africa and, for once, in winter Africa looks like it should while the appropriate parts of Europe are snow covered. A far better and more imaginative effort than I have seen anywhere else.

4. Don't be a spoilsport . . . . . RELEASE THE NEW SCEN . . . . . please

[McMonkey]

Where can I find Marko Urm's STRUGGLE FOR EUROPE?

I have searched with GOOGLE and cannot find it!

[curtsibling]

@AGRICOLA: Cheers for the reply!

I was thinking of going down that route, as it fits the vision I have for this scenario.

The Allies have the bomb, the Soviets have manpower, the Axis have weaponry.

Giving the Axis no SDI makes sense, and provides a hefty penalty for them if the Allies break out the bomb!



PS
I'll try to find that scenario!

I am probably keeping this project to one set of files for this one.

Although the winter/summer file switch has always interested me...

I usually hate breaking immersion to change files, but I might explore it this time!

[Eivind IV]

Give the US one or two nukes if, say, they loose Paris or London. Desperate times requires desperate measures! Unlimited nukes could possibly only ruin the scenario.

[curtsibling]

Event created nukes! That is a neat solution -

It saves having to distract the Allies from other research.
The race for the bomb can be abstracted in wonders/events.

Good idea!

[AGRICOLA]

@McMonkey

Marko Urm's "THE STRUGGLE FOR EUROPE" is in the CFC scen collection.

Googling on " THE STRUGGLE FOR EUROPE Marko Urm" got 4 hits.

I'm playing it as the Allies and am finding it comparable to but tougher than your WWII Europa.

If you try it, fix the Homeguard unit in Rules 18. For some reason, in this file only, its role has been changed from Trade (no support needed) to Defend (shield support needed). Sorta screws up the scen as Allied cities are full of the inexpensive, pitchfork and blunderbuss wielding old fellas.

[McMonkey]

Thanks Aggie

I have never noticed this scenario before. The initial German blitzkrieg is fierce, I like it! The batch file system is also very impressive. I will be borrowing some ideas!

The graphics are probably amongst most ugly I have ever seen but I can spend an hour or so giving it a nice makeover

Oh, by the way, I agree with what Agricola says about the Allied only nukes and with Eivinds idea to create them via events!

Threadjack over

[techumseh]

My download seems to be missing the Rules files, so of course the events don't work either. Has anyone else got this problem?

BTW, what a lot of work he put into this. That's committment!

[McMonkey]

At CFC there is about nine seperate downloads and one is for the rules files. That should fill in the missing gap!

EDIT: BTW it is located near the end of page 2 in the Modern scenarios section of the old download collection.

[AGRICOLA]

Originally posted by McMonkey
Threadjack over

Mebbe not quite because I'm trying to work on Ciaran.

Originally posted by McMonkey
The initial German blitzkrieg is fierce, I like it!

Yes, but the massive Luftwaffe assault continues until the fall of 1941. This is ahistorical because by November 1940 there were only sporadic small raids, partly because of European winter weather, and by 1941 the Luftwaffe was fully engaged in the east.

I found that by various stratagems the Allies could defend successfully until the winter of 1941 but that things fell apart after that because the rate of Spitfire production could not keep up with losses.

In general, the events popups are very informative but the events themselves are not very imaginatively designed.

Overall, I prefer your approach of having 6 productive North American cities to his single superproductive one and your British Empire city on the Red Sea to his lack of dependable means of reinforcing the eastern Med.

I'm now more convinced than ever that the ultimate WWII Europe scen will have to be:
1. TOT
2. Use file switching
3. Multiple rules files to do justice to the gradual tech improvements over 5 years.
4. Use reactive defence schemes and spawning by events to compensate for the AI's refusal to build additional units as long as it has 100-200 of them.
5. Use summer and winter terrains and adjust unit performance according to the season. In the 1940's, European winters were not the time for massive air operations.

[McMonkey]

Do batch files work OK with ToT? I don't recall seeing any scenarios that use them. Could just be that the larger events space means that designers don't feel the need to use batch files. I guess they do work!?!

Looks like there is a competition brewing between Tech, Curt and myself: WWII European theatre - the definitive scenario

Oh, and I agree with your appraisal of what the ultimate WWII scenario would need. The only thing that scares me about using batch files is where do you stop? At least when the events space is used up you know you have reached the limit. With multiple files you could be looking at the never ending project!
Also, if you decide to make a change to the rules or events you have to go through all the multiple files...lots more work

[techumseh]

Yes, I missed that one, thanks.

[techumseh]

It looks like there might be a contest brewing after all. Does anyone else want a piece of the action?

So far, I've been able to avoid multiple files in my scenarios, considering it a matter of pride to do so. We will see this time, however - it's definitely more challenging.

[Arthedain]

Of course you must release it to the public Curt!

I'm somewhat against the citylost event for nukes, because then it wont be a different game each time you play it. And if you know it in advance, you probably wont take the city, just to make it easier on yourself. Maybe a combination of techs, events, I dunno.

And btw, what map are you using for this one?