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World War Two Europa vII

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  • #76
    Some ideas for discussion:

    I think it would be possible to prevent the disbanding of units in MGE games by changing the '@DISBAND' text in the GAME file. This would be useful in Fortress Europe to prevent a clever player from scuttling vulnerable Freighters and thus avoiding the 150 gold penalty.
    Of course this would mean the player cannot disband any units but I don't think that is a big problem in this particular scenario.

    Another possible use of the GAME file is to prevent the player from pillaging certain terrain improvements by amending the '@PILLAGEWHAT' line. This could stop a player from ripping up roads and stackable terrain in front of an Axis assault. I think this has pros and cons.

    The cons: Scorched earth is a well tried military strategy.

    The pros: The Axis AI has no idea how to conduct scorched earth tactics (an unfair advantage for the player) and could be easily halted by the player using them against it. Preventing pillaging fortresses would stop the player creating non-stackable killing grounds for the AI to stumble into.

    I'm sure this is not a new idea but I thought I would mention it. I have several spare slots now and want to create a Recon aircraft that can only spy on enemy cities. This is also done using the '@SPYOPTIONS' section of the game file. As the Allies are the only side with Spy units this should avoid the Axis bribing Allied units.

    As I am not sure if my idea for 'Air engineer' Bombers terraforming Axis Industrial terrain will work I have decided to add a Factory unit that would give the Allies gold for every enemy one destroyed. As the terrain is stackable it will be possible to put several in the same square for repeated missions against the same targets (IE Ruhr/Saarland).

    As well as being quite tough targets for allied bombers to escape undamaged from there will be Axis fighters to contend with. If there are factories remaining when/if the Allies capture the Axis Industrial areas their destruction would represent the triumph of the Allies in capturing Germany's industrial heart.

    I may include Medium Bombers and/or Self-propelled AA in the one of the other slots. I would like to include US Airborne to distinguish them from the British Airborne.

    My final idea is to give British and American Infantry settler status to represent the organic engineers in such combat units. This would allow me to reuse the Engineer slot.

    As the Allied government is monarchy I can set the rules so they do not eat any food. "But the cities will lose population when you build Infantry" I hear you cry. Fear not, I have thought of this. I may be wrong but I imagine that most people prefer building Armour, Aircraft and Mobile Artillery to Infantry. As the majority of units in WWII were Infantry this would lead to an unrealistic imbalance. To get around this I will make Allied infantry non-buildable and produce them via repeating events in America, Britain and the British Empire city. Their support city will be set to NONE so that there will be no decrease in city sizes.

    The only downside I can think of is that the player may use these Infantry 'settlers' to Join cities and boost their size/productivity. I don't think there is a way of preventing this (if there is please tell me how) other than a dreaded House Rule.

    I have decided to replace the Neutral Fighter and Armour as they are not as relevant as some Allied units I plan to add.

    Your thoughts and comments on these ideas would be appreciated
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    • #77
      Infantry/settler units can create fortifications, but cannot fortify themselves. In the Dracul scenario, the Transylvanian foot are infantry in the engineer slot. They can be fortified at setup using the cheat menu, but not during the game itself. Bear in mind also that the AI will not have the slightest idea how to run such a unit. It'll probably found cities with them in places you wouldn't want them to be.

      The AI can and will bribe units whether or not there are spy/diplos in the game. You cannot stop this from happening.
      Lost in America.
      "a freaking mastermind." --Stefu
      "or a very good liar." --Stefu
      "Jesus" avatars created by Mercator and Laszlo.

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      • #78
        Good points!

        The AI won't have any spy or settler units so that's not a problem but infantry not being able to fortify is! I guess having to go through lots of Infantry units using the space bar each turn could prove to be a bit tiresome! Also they won't be able to 'dig in' which is one of the features of infantry.

        This gives me something to think about, thanks!
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        • #79
          Originally posted by McMonkey
          The AI won't have any spy or settler units so that's not a problem
          Sadly, the bribing can still be a problem!

          If you play at Deity level (not lower, unless I'm mistaken), and diplomat units are present in the game, the AI can bribe with any land unit (dirty cheater)!

          I'm quite sure about the fact, but not the details (like the level necessary for this to occur + the necessary presence of diplomats in the game)
          Ankh-Morpork, we have an orangutan...
          Discworld Scenario: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...8&pagenumber=1
          POMARJ Scenario:http://www.apolyton.com/forums/showt...8&pagenumber=1
          LOST LEGIONS Scenario:http://www.apolyton.com/forums/showt...hreadid=169464

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          • #80
            The AI can always bribe a single, unstacked unit without needing a diplomat or spy unit to do so. This normally happens to units defending on hills, mountains or other terrain with a defensive bonus.

            The AI can bribe your cities only if it has a diplomat or spy unit. You can limit the functions of a dip/spy unit by editing the Game text, but this does not affect AI controlled dip/spy units.
            Tecumseh's Village, Home of Fine Civilization Scenarios

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            • #81
              I can say with certainty that the AI WILL bribe single units at KING level. Happens to me all the time.

              One solution might be to drain the AI treasury every turn with an event. No money to do the actual bribing might prohibit it. Or maybe not--the AI "cheats" with money and happiness.
              Lost in America.
              "a freaking mastermind." --Stefu
              "or a very good liar." --Stefu
              "Jesus" avatars created by Mercator and Laszlo.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Exile
                I can say with certainty that the AI WILL bribe single units at KING level. Happens to me all the time.
                Does it do so WITHOUT any diplo unit?

                I thought I had seen that the bribing without diplo happened only at Deity level?
                Ankh-Morpork, we have an orangutan...
                Discworld Scenario: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...8&pagenumber=1
                POMARJ Scenario:http://www.apolyton.com/forums/showt...8&pagenumber=1
                LOST LEGIONS Scenario:http://www.apolyton.com/forums/showt...hreadid=169464

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                • #83
                  No diplomat needed Cyr. The AI works in mysterious ways.

                  For unusual unit ability combinations, Mc, take a look at Koby's analysis of such stuff on the Scen League site. It's very methodical.
                  Lost in America.
                  "a freaking mastermind." --Stefu
                  "or a very good liar." --Stefu
                  "Jesus" avatars created by Mercator and Laszlo.

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                  • #84
                    Thanks for the info guys. I will take a look at Koby's advice. This feedback is just what I was looking for. No point spending loads of time making the changes and then finding out in the Beta/Alpha tests!

                    The feedback for Eivind's Desert War scenario is very useful too. I did not want to post there before Eivind has had a chance to reply! With several WWII scenarios in development right now it is an ideal situation for cross-pollination

                    I have been wondering why the AI occasionally ended up with 'Foreign' units when there were no diplomats. As long as this is an occasional thing I don't think it is a major problem. In the playtests I have conducted so far the AI has mainly bribed Soviet units and as the Axis often used captured T34s and employed Hiwis I don't see this as a total negative. If they started bribing British or American units this might be more of a problem, though I have not seen that happening yet.
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                    • #85
                      Re: Some ideas for discussion:

                      Originally posted by McMonkey
                      Another possible use of the GAME file is to prevent the player from pillaging certain terrain improvements by amending the '@PILLAGEWHAT' line. This could stop a player from ripping up roads and stackable terrain in front of an Axis assault. I think this has pros and cons.

                      The cons: Scorched earth is a well tried military strategy.

                      The pros: The Axis AI has no idea how to conduct scorched earth tactics (an unfair advantage for the player) and could be easily halted by the player using them against it. Preventing pillaging fortresses would stop the player creating non-stackable killing grounds for the AI to stumble into.
                      1. Methinks your pros and the cons are backasswards.

                      2. "Scorched earth is a well tried military strategy."
                      Sure is. It works like a charm to confound the best laid plans of designers.

                      Originally posted by McMonkey
                      As the Allied government is monarchy I can set the rules so they do not eat any food. "But the cities will lose population when you build Infantry" I hear you cry. Fear not, I have thought of this. I may be wrong but I imagine that most people prefer building Armour, Aircraft and Mobile Artillery to Infantry. As the majority of units in WWII were Infantry this would lead to an unrealistic imbalance. To get around this I will make Allied infantry non-buildable and produce them via repeating events in America, Britain and the British Empire city. Their support city will be set to NONE so that there will be no decrease in city sizes.
                      1. Monarchy is not designed to be a government for large modern civs. As the number of owned cities increases, citizens become unhappy for no apparent reason. A city that is perfectly happy at the end of a turn can become unhappy at the start of the next one. This is a pain to continually monitor.

                      2. Monarchy needs happiness troops in order to maintain some semblance of a happy civ. Normally. these are the cheapest cannon fodder that one can build . . . . infantry. How many of these units will be spawned each turn and how much game time and resources will be wasted to move them to where they are needed? Will the supply of infantry keep up with the needs of the Allies as they advance?

                      3. IIRC, in your WWII Europe, in order to keep the Allies financially solvent, I had to spend an inordinate amount of game time in slowly moving freights from where they were built to where they were delivered.
                      IMHO, shuffling freights does not constitute quality game time.

                      In Struggle for Europe, I got so fed up with moving European freights from Manchester to New York for rehoming and then back to Manchester for delivery to an Axis city (couldn't stay solvent with deliveries to Allied cities and no rehoming . . . . damn poor playtesting) that I set up a Manchester-New York freighter chain with a capacity of round trips for 8 freights per turn. After that, I simply took freights to Manchester, rehomed 8 of them to New York (cheat) and delivered them to the Axis.

                      As you may gather, I have little use for shuffling freights. The best solution for controlling the amount of cash that a civ has is what Capt Nemo developed for Red Front. Freights are spawned in N America, run the U-boat gauntlet and are delivered to a high payout Soviet city, normally one in the Caucasus.

                      This means that there is at most one convoy per turn and the safe delivery of each convoy is critical. If done right, this eliminates nearly all tedious freight building and shuffling.
                      Excerpts from the Manual of the Civilization Fanatic :

                      Money can buy happiness, just raise the luxury rate to 50%.
                      Money is not the root of all evil, it is the root of great empires.

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                      • #86
                        I understand your point of view regarding Monarchy. I will take a look at changing to another form of government (Communism?) and tweaking the rules values to fit the scenario.

                        I think I will give up on the idea of scrapping the Engineer unit and making Infantry into 'settlers' as it creates more problems than the one extra slot is worth! I think that I will stick with the idea of event spawning Infantry (in America/Britain/British Empire) though as this will help keep the game a bit more historically balanced.

                        I may make Allied Armour (and other such units) a little more effective and a bit more expensive. This way they will be the elite vanguard of the Allied armies and the Infantry will make up the bulk. I want to make Infantry the all rounders, useful for attacking cities if you are prepared to lose a few and good in defence, especially in rough terrain.

                        I have considered making a Soviet city in the far north of Norway called Arctic Ports. This city would have the Colossus, Stock Exchange and other such 'trade' improvements to make it the highly profitable goal of Allied trade shipments that are event spawned in New York. Trading with the Axis will be a no-no!

                        Its a pity that shifting the map north would mean beginning again with unit placement etc.. I realise the 'Arctic Ports' idea is a compromise!

                        With the Batch files I should be able to spawn U-Boats in the Atlantic and North Sea that will present the Allied convoys with a sterner test than they currently face. Each time the Batch file is run the new events file will spawn the U-Boat Wolf-packs at new co-ordinates so that their appearance does not become too predictable for the player.

                        In the later stages of the game I will gradually cut down on the numbers of U-Boats and use the events space to produce more Axis defenders for Fortress Europe!

                        At the moment I have a good basis, in WWII Europa, to build on. I see the development as a process of refining ideas and building a more challenging and polished game. I am more than willing to consider all suggestions and try them out to see if they float.

                        My aim is to try and produce a "realistic" European theatre scenario whilst allowing the player to fight things their way. I am not interested in making a scenario where the Allied player develops Jets and A-Bombs in 1942, thats just not my bag man
                        I am trying to build the type of scenario that I enjoy playing, selfish as that may sound.
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                        • #87
                          What I was trying to point out is that in a scen where money is scarce, and the only way to gain more is to trade, the need to build a dozen or more freights per turn and move them to their destination is a major bore. Depending on the distance and the movement rate, you could very well have 30+ freights to move each turn.


                          My aim is to try and produce a "realistic" European theatre scenario whilst allowing the player to fight things their way. I am not interested in making a scenario where the Allied player develops Jets and A-Bombs in 1942, thats just not my bag man.
                          That sounds fine but I don't understand your point about anachronous units. As far as I can see, as you are using multiple rules files, there should be no way that in 1942 anyone can get units that were actually developed in later years, no matter how much research they do.
                          Excerpts from the Manual of the Civilization Fanatic :

                          Money can buy happiness, just raise the luxury rate to 50%.
                          Money is not the root of all evil, it is the root of great empires.

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                          • #88
                            At the moment the Allies produce one trade unit every other turn in NY via an event. I may need to tweak this a bit to balance things out but I don't see it as too many units to move about.
                            The idea will be to get them to the Arctic Ports city safely to keep up a flow of war materials from the USA to Russia to drive on the economy and scientific development.
                            If too many get sunk the Allies will be in trouble as there will not be enough gold to support improvements or rush build units. The -150 gold will make the loss of a trade filled freighter a double blow. This is my concept for the Battle of the Atlantic.

                            This method of events producing trade will help me guide the pace of tech development. I don't necessarily want to make every unit appear bang on time, I just don't want a trade minded player to be able to storm through the tech tree in a fraction of the time intended by producing hundreds of traders. If the Allies manage to get Jets six or twelve months early because they really got the better of the U-Boats then thats fine by me!
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