Fortress Europe

[McMonkey]

The link works OK for me too! If not you can just go to the Scenario League Wiki page and find it there.

Sorry to hear you don't have the time Cyrion, I know what a precious commodity it can be at times. Hopefully you will get a chance to try it out one rainy day

[AGRICOLA]

I have downloaded FORTRESS EUROPE ALPHA and spent a few hours looking it over carefully prior to starting the 200 turn scen. Unfortunately, I don't think that it is ready for even an alpha test. Here are the major problems that I found.


U-BOATS

I stand to be corrected on this but, from my reading of EVENTS, the Axis appear to spawn 9 U-boats/turn plus another 24 from 2 other events in the first half of the scen. Furthermore, 48 turns (1 turn approximates 1 week) make a year. Consequently, assuming that the Allies land in France in June '44 (approximately turn 120) it will not be until then that the Allies can begin to capture some of the spawning cities. By that time, ~1100 U-boats will have been spawned. If the 85 U-boats and subs that the Axis have at the start of the scen are added to the total, this looks a potential recipe for "Too many units" unless the Allies can sink 8-9 U-boats per turn. Considering that AI units tend to form stacks and ocean squares are not stackable, this might be possible if the Allies devote at least 50% of their capacity to building DD's and CA's. On the other hand, what happens if players find a workaround for the "No protecting ships stacked under aircraft." house rule and don't bother with devoting resources to sinking U-boats (see below)?


README

I have therefore prevented all road and stackable terrain pillaging!

Stackable terrain, roads and terrain improvements can all be pillaged.

*No protecting ships stacked under aircraft.

That's fine, but by approximately turn 20 I can guarantee that every convoy will arrive safely in Britain despite the U-boats. Similarly, none of the units carried by Transports (10% chance of sinking if out of sight of land) will to be lost at sea.


INCOME, SCIENCE AND LEND LEASE,

The LL convoys are the only source of significant income for the Allies. Simple city improvements like Banks are more than 25 techs in the future and Stock Exchanges are even further in the future. Consequently, with only one LL, worth 400 gold when delivered, spawned per turn, getting the LL convoys delivered promptly determines whether or not the Allies survive. There is very little margin for error.

For example, at the recommended Deity level of play, the Allies start out with 1985 gold. With 70% science (max) the research rate is a tech/5 turns. Because the Allies start with only 3 techs, the discovery rate slows precipitously as a more techs are discovered . . . . . the rate decreases from a tech/5 turns at the start of the scen to a tech/14 turns after 5 new techs have been discovered.

Meanwhile, the 30% tax rate generates only 73 gold while costs are 430 gold/turn (cash flow = -357 gold). That means that city improvement will have to be sold unless LL supplies are delivered during turn 6, the soonest that the 3 LL present at the start of the scen can be delivered. The arithmetic is simple, delivery of the 3 LL's will result in ~1000 gold in the treasury but, subsequently, if even 2 LL's are sunk, city improvements will be sold.

IMHO, the present and future income and rate of research available to the Allies are so low that there is no way that the scen can be played. There is simply too little gold and too few flasks available. Early conquest, even if it were possible, does not solve the income problem because none of the civs has very much gold. Early increases in the science rate are impossible because the Library tech is 20+ techs in the future and Universities and Research Centres are even more remote. There is absolutely no way that the 90+ available techs can be discovered within 200 turns.


CITY DISPLAY

There is a problem with the width of the What Shall We Build popup in the city window. There is overwriting for units with long names. The top screenshot is from Fortress Europe and the bottom one from curtsibling's Dictator 6. Perhaps he can advise on how to widen the popup.

[McMonkey]

Thanks for taking a look AGRICOLA. Sorry to hear you don't think it is ready yet. You make a good point about the U-Boats. I was trying to compensate for the AI's lack of skill by giving it huge numbers. It looks like I have overdone things a bit.

I take your point about the science rate and will look into ways of fixing this, possibly by making some science improvements available much sooner on the tree or from the start of the game. I wanted money to be tight in order to make the safe transit of Lend Lease and a strategic bombing campaign necessary. Units will probably have to be built the old fashioned way by letting the shields accumulate naturally instead of using cash to rush build them. If the Allies economy is too healthy then there will be no reason to rush over Lend Lease convoys or to bomb German factories (Event=money!).

I will do some work to try and rectify the deficiencies you have pointed out before asking for any more testing. Thanks

P.S. If anyone can tell me how to widen the city build box please let me know.

[AGRICOLA]

Here are a few more thoughts on FE.

Excepting Marketplaces in all cities, 2 Banks and 2 Stock Exchanges, the Allies start the scen with no other income or science producing city improvements. Their government is Monarchy.

Even if the Allies build Courthouses, Banks and Stock Exchanges, their tax revenues can never equal or exceed their costs because of the large amount of corruption in a far-flung empire under Monarchy. In fact, the more enemy cities they conquer, the larger their deficit will become until 1 Lend Lease per turn may no longer cover the shortfall.

With only 3 starting techs, 90+ techs to discover, a Tech Paradigm of 200 and no Libraries, Universities or Research Centers, there is no way that the Allies can research much more than 40 techs during the scen. Even if they build Libraries, Universities and Research Centers in every city, by the time the Allies have researched 20 techs, the next tech will require 30+ turns to research.

Of course, as things stand, the Allies will first have to research the techs for all of the above city improvements as well as the techs for units beyond what they can build at the start (only naval vessels, Engineers, Infantry and AA). Furthermore, they will be forced to build basic city improvements when they should be building tanks.


Kobayashi's DAINICHI SEKAI TAISEN is the best scen that I have played for keeping a civ poor as a church mouse and force it to import materiel in order to survive. In DST Japan operates under Fundamentalism, has a balance budget with a minimal surplus, a research rate adequate to research the techs it needs to wage war and the city improvements that one would expect to find in 1937. Their imports are in the form of Supplies that provide 80 shields when disbanded to speed up the building of units.


I would suggest that you consider:

Changing the Allied government to Communism but rename it War Democracy or something appropriate. If this does not approximately balance the budget, the upkeep costs of improvements can be adjusted.

Giving the Allies all the techs appropriate for November 1941 and adding city improvements commensurate with city size. This would do away with the need to have cities build otherwise unbuildable units. I dislike the concept because my ideas of what should be built and where it should be built are usually diametrically opposite to what the designer has chosen. For example, building an Industrial Complex (320 shields) in a city that produces only 8 shields might well get me booted out of the SL Players Guild.

Reducing the Tech Paradigm to a value that allows the discovery of the most advanced techs.

Increasing the number or value of LL shipments with time as U.S. industry gears up for war.


Musings:

I wonder if it might be an idea to give U-boats and subs the "can attack aircraft in flight" flag? That would do away with the need for the house rule on stacking a/c and ships. I figure that, even with air cover, U-boats will get through, especially at night.

Also, I question whether making it impossible to disband units makes much sense because it is so easy to circumvent by homing unwanted units to a city, moving them outside the city and then cutting their shield support. Alternately, one can always load them on a transport and set sail into the Atlantic or up to a convenient Axis city. In the latter case, unloading is optional, depending on whether getting shot or drowned is preferable. The way I rationalize disbanding one unit to help build another is that the equipment may be lost but the personnel can be retrained to operate the new equipment.

There is some mix-up in the description of wonders. The Berchtesgade in Munich is described as Adam Smith, yet the Axis still pay for the upkeep of improvements that cost 1 gold/turn. The Allies don't.

[McMonkey]

Good stuff AGRI. I will take a serious look at my whole concept and will probably follow your advice as it is sound. I fear that my concept for the battle of the Atlantic and the strategic bombing campaign may not be workable, at least not to the critical to survival level I had hoped for. I'm not so sure that the Axis U-Boat offensive would provide the challenge I was hoping for anyway.

Thanks for the feedback, I really appreciate it

[McMonkey]

I am just beginning to apply some of your recommendations AGRICOLA. I don't know if you, or anyone else here, can help me work out something?

For example, at the recommended Deity level of play, the Allies start out with 1985 gold. With 70% science (max) the research rate is a tech/5 turns. Because the Allies start with only 3 techs, the discovery rate slows precipitously as a more techs are discovered . . . . . the rate decreases from a tech/5 turns at the start of the scen to a tech/14 turns after 5 new techs have been discovered.

With only 3 starting techs, 90+ techs to discover, a Tech Paradigm of 200 and no Libraries, Universities or Research Centers, there is no way that the Allies can research much more than 40 techs during the scen. Even if they build Libraries, Universities and Research Centers in every city, by the time the Allies have researched 20 techs, the next tech will require 30+ turns to research.

Is there any way of calculating through to the end of the scenario the rate of slowdown caused by the number of techs owned? It is something I did not take into consideration when designing the scenario. The money problems can be fixed quite easily, but the tech rate issue is going to be fundamental to getting this scenario finished.

Hopefully Civ2 Unlimited will eliminate any potential "Too many Units" issues though I will try and prevent the number of AI units getting to ridiculous levels.

EDIT:
Sorted one thing out. The City production screen can be widened by altering the width value in the following section of the GAME.txt file:

@PRODUCTION
@title=What shall we build in %STRING0?
@width=640
@listbox
@button=Auto
@button=Help

Interestingly the change takes effect immediately once you save the GAME.txt file. No need to reload the scenario as with rules etc...! I don't know if that would ever be of any use though!

[GhostOfDisco]

Well, I've played it for a few turns, hoping the subs don't get my Len-Lease shipments of American armor.

One thing I noted when I downloaded is that the graphics you currently have are still of MGE-quality. Below is an example of the GFX update I made myself from various scenario graphics and such:

[McMonkey]

Would you be able to send me the updated graphics files Ghost? I have a big list of improvements to make already so updating the graphics can be added to that. I will also consider using your snowy terrain. I did experiment with it but I personally find the white glare a bit harsh of the eye so I opted for the drab terrain and leafless trees. Also snow does not look so hot in North Africa and the Middle East.

How did you find the first AI turn? I know it is quite long and that's why I made sure the Allies got to go first, even though a lot of units can't move. For me there is nothing more frustrating than starting a scenario where the AI goes first before I can set the screen zoom or familiarize myself with the map or the situation.

Some of the main points on my to do list:

-Fix problems with science rate by altering government, improvement locations and tech paradigm. Priority!

-Swap Allied government to Communism (renamed).

-Look at cash flow issue. Could increase $ from Lend Lease and move improvements down the tree. I don't want to make Battle of the Atlantic unnecessary though!

-Alter the preset production of units. I may look at a manpower (IE Infantry) event for the Allies like the one used in Kobayashi's Dainichi Sekai Taisen.

-Use a terrain square as a special shield resource to define industrial cities?

-Stop road pillaging.

-Alter stats so that house rule about 'No Air protected stacks' is necessary.

-Look at using the unit stats from Rise of the Dictators which seem to work well.

-Add the read me file to the game concepts in the Civilopedia.

-Finish the tech tree printout and html read me.

Any feedback you can give me from your playtest will be a great help. Thanks

[GhostOfDisco]

Well, I haven't finished all the units, but I plan to. I'll send you what I've got soon.

[McMonkey]

No rush. It will most likely take me forever to get this finished anyway

[GhostOfDisco]

Well, I've got all the units (I think) all the way to the summer of '43 done, so I'll probably get done with it this week...

[GhostOfDisco]

Well, I finished (more or less) all the units today...

I'm wondering ... why is there only rules files for the summer and winter? It seems to me if the vehicles for the units change, the performance of said units should be adjusted as well; a P-40 going up against a Bf 109, for example, won't perform the same as a P-51 against the same craft.

Now, if I can just upload it...

[McMonkey]

My system for the units was to divide them into types (IE Infantry, Armour, Fighter, Bomber) rather than specific vehicles and aircraft. The unit graphics are just there for their aesthetic value, I could have just used military map symbols to depict Regiments, Brigades and Squadrons.

The summer/winter files are just there to modify the movement rates. I wanted to avoid multiple rules files as much as I could as they make the scenario creation process much more complicated. If you want to make a change to a units stats it is a pain in the bum to have to open multiple files!

Looking forward to seeing the updated units!

[GhostOfDisco]

At last I finally managed to upload the new graphics!

I do understand your remarks about snow terrain in North Africa and such, but your solution of snow trees while everything else was green just looked ... wrong, somehow. Maybe it's partially due to the fact that you ported MGE graphics to ToT without updating them but still...

Anyway, tell me what you think of my graphics update!

[McMonkey]

Thanks Ghost. I will see how the winter terrain looks in game.