Civ2MP

[-Jrabbit]

Great thread. Please continue.

[techumseh]

Yes. This is interesting. We don't get this sort of thing over at Scenario League.

[EyesOfNight]

Drixnak (04:52 PM) :
up for a game? btw, suntzu taught you things about civ2?
jes (04:53 PM) :
just came home, i must do some things; sun tzu told me? hm, dont know what
Drixnak (04:54 PM) :
He said he opened your eyes to things about the game you had never thought of.
jes (04:54 PM) :
ah, hm
Drixnak (04:55 PM) :
He told me this as he built his cities 1 space apart and let me take every hut on the map.
jes (04:56 PM) :
hehe, u played him?
Drixnak (04:56 PM) :
Yeah, played him a fifth game to see how he did when he knew I was saving every turn. Needless to say, he no longer buys barracks, horsemen, and settlers in mass.
jes (04:57 PM) :
yea
Drixnak (04:57 PM) :
In fact, he plays like a total beginner. He builds barracks and then builds archers for defense, builds 1 space apart, doesn't try to get huts.
jes (04:59 PM) :
hm, not good
Drixnak (05:01 PM) :
He plays like that vs you too?
jes (05:02 PM) :
we only play 1x1x diety, no, there he looks for huts early

[EyesOfNight]

SunTzu's skill when he doesn't find 300 gold in 5 huts and start buying barracks, settlers, and horsemen from turn 5.

[EyesOfNight]

SunTzu's skill when he finds 300 gold in 5 huts and starts buying horsemen, settlers, and barracks from turn 5 vs my 3 advanced tribe 2 horsemen start. Any questions?

[Mighty SunTzu]

Originally posted by EyesOfNight
Drixnak (04:52 PM) :
up for a game? btw, suntzu taught you things about civ2?
jes (04:53 PM) :
just came home, i must do some things; sun tzu told me? hm, dont know what
Drixnak (04:54 PM) :
He said he opened your eyes to things about the game you had never thought of.
jes (04:54 PM) :
ah, hm
Drixnak (04:55 PM) :
He told me this as he built his cities 1 space apart and let me take every hut on the map.
jes (04:56 PM) :
hehe, u played him?
Drixnak (04:56 PM) :
Yeah, played him a fifth game to see how he did when he knew I was saving every turn. Needless to say, he no longer buys barracks, horsemen, and settlers in mass.
jes (04:57 PM) :
yea
Drixnak (04:57 PM) :
In fact, he plays like a total beginner. He builds barracks and then builds archers for defense, builds 1 space apart, doesn't try to get huts.
jes (04:59 PM) :
hm, not good
Drixnak (05:01 PM) :
He plays like that vs you too?
jes (05:02 PM) :
we only play 1x1x diety, no, there he looks for huts early

again i am confused. Where exactly does jes say that i am not a strong player? To make such a claim, you are taking his words completely out of context. Seeing the conversation only verifies that you were lying about this.

Eyes loves to lie. i didn't say that i "opened jes' eyes about things he never thought of". i said that jes told me that my game caused him to change the way he played and that he became a stronger player because of it.

Eyes was spouting off his mouth to jes here and jes was simply being polite, not getting into a controversy. "jes's response to eyes saying that i don't try to get huts (which is ridiculous by the way), was "hm, not good". (polite). Not saying that i'm not a good player. Eyes hallucinated that out of thin air.

Eyes to Jes: "Yeah, played him a fifth game to see how he did when he knew I was saving every turn. Needless to say, he no longer buys barracks, horsemen, and settlers in mass."

If there is not a lot of lucky hut gold, of course i don't buy anything in mass. There's no gold to do it with! It's really simple. When the gold is there, i will spend it as fast as it comes in. When it's not there, i have to make due without it.

Re: Archers, yes in the absense of pikemen, i will often choose archers over phalanx's as they have the ability to attack as well as defend. I wouldn't expect eyes to understand this with his rudimentary knowledge of the game, nor would i expect him to understand the value of building cities 2 spaces apart.

As i have said many times, 2x2x king small map is a game where lucky huts can dictate the game. This game is clearly no exception. In the 3050bc save, we can see that of my first 6 cities, two were tribes and i would consider this a very lucky start. Of Eyes first 6 cities, an amazing 4 of them were tribes. 4 tribes out of 6 cities this game, 3 tribes out of 4 cities last game.

Like i said, Lucky huts can absolutely run rampant and a weak player like eyes, with the right huts can surmount a strong game. All those tribes mean a lot of extra horses, and a lot of exploration compared to the guy that is relying primarily on building settlers for his expansion.

So Eyes had phenomenal luck in this one and later in the game when he had 22 cities to my 14, he mounted an attack, boatlifted horses vs. my vet archers and lost every horse he sent. Then he quit so we'll never know how this game would have turned out. But for sure it was his best start compared to mine of our five games. Eye's contention that "this is how i do when i know the turns are being saved" is once again ridiculous. Since i don't cheat, I play every turn in every game as if they are.

If Eyes had less lucky huts and didn't have 4 tribes out of 6 cities, how far behind would he be on skill alone? The basic fact is that some games are luckier than others and i openly acknowledge that on the lucky hut horsey race setting, small map 2x2x king, i am much more susceptible to a defeat at the hands of a lesser player than in more skillful settings. Take huts out of the game and enjoy the show, my skill vs. eyes.

[EyesOfNight]

Let me enlighten you why it is that your play sucks. First of all, defense never wins on 2x2x small map. Building barracks that early and building archers (what were you thinking?) is completely stupid. Also, you don't build 1 space apart that early in the game. Again, you obviously don't understand how important map control and resources are since you seem to think you can win sitting in such a tiny area. Anyone who has played me knows what is going to happen based on that game right there. By 1000BC I'd have 50+ cities and working on dragoons. You completely gave me the entire map. The reason I didn't continue was because your timer was frozen and I wanted to look at the saves and see what you were doing. Plus, you were taking forever on your turns when you didn't even have any units. You even celebrated your cities that early in Republic...seriously, how long have you been playing again?

[Mighty SunTzu]

Originally posted by EyesOfNight
Let me enlighten you why it is that your play sucks.
"First of all, defense never wins on 2x2x small map. Building barracks that early and building archers (what were you thinking?) is completely stupid. " Also, you don't build 1 space apart that early in the game. Again, you obviously don't understand how important map control and resources are since you seem to think you can win sitting in such a tiny area."
Anyone who has played me knows what is going to happen based on that game right there. By 1000BC I'd have 50+ cities and working on dragoons. You completely gave me the entire map. The reason I didn't continue was because your timer was frozen and I wanted to look at the saves and see what you were doing. Plus, you were taking forever on your turns when you didn't even have any units. You even celebrated your cities that early in Republic...seriously, how long have you been playing again?

I am at the point where i'm really close to being ready to leave this topic alone. As a grownup, it's beginning to feel silly expending my energy on this. Nevertheless, it is kind of fun so i will reply to this post and we'll see what happens after that.

With lucky huts being such a major factor in any 2x2x king small map game, the huts we get make a major impact on how the game is shaped. Unquestionably, the less skilled player can definately get off to a superior start in some of the games. Will these huts bring horses, chariots, nomads, tribes, 100 gold, or will they bring Barbarians, weeds, off path techs and 25 gold? Based on the huts we get, and based on the starting land where a whale brings a very substantial early start advantage as it did for eyes in this 5th game, can any player dominate the other in early exploration every game?

I had a game just last night with Zep, Bud and Freaky. I had 10 units from 15 huts (4 archers, 3 chariots, 3 horses) as well as four 50 gold huts and alphabet) and completely dominated the exploration of the land that Bud, Zep and I were sharing. Because of sheer luck, and for no other reason, I was able to claim most of the huts as well as the visible whales and get a fast start that gave me a fantastic advantage, disbanding 2 archers and rushing my first settler in the first turn of the game. Am i or is eyes able to completely dominate the exploration vs. these players every game? No way. There are too many luck factors dictating the course of this.

Fortunately for Bud and Zep, we were playing a peace until Hoovers game that Bud suggested (also 12 city, 4 wonder, no steals or tech trading, and it turned out to be a 3000bc build year). I also in the kindness of my heart and to get the game underway and not have everybody quit, backed away to give them some of the decent places to build. If it was a cut throat duelle, i had the units - by pure luck - to completely box both players in. A big difference between eyes and me is that if he had the lucky start i had in this situation, he would be boasting that it was all skill. I openly acknowledge that the hut luck is the whole reason i was in this position.

On to another point, i'll let the reader determine for himself if celebrating early in 2x2x king republic is a bad thing as eyes seems to believe. Do we like cities that are size 3's or do we like 6's and 7's? If eye's can't see the value of this in his limited tunnel vision opinions, then i am certain he will never be convinced.

As well, if a player can't see the value of a balance between attackers and defenders, i don't know what i can say to him. The player that doesn't get the upper hand in early exploration, once he is found he needs to start thinking about a measure of defense. Thus the couple of barracks in 14 cities and the several veteran archers, units which i might add defended my core perfectly when he mustered a weak attack landing i think 2 horsemen from a boat.

Every game is different. In many games i will find my enemy first, in others they will find me. In this game vs. eyes, all of the factors came together (whale in eye's capital enabling very fast horseback for one, finding a ton of tribes another, tribes which brought forth more quick horses) in such a way that eyes explored more of the map faster. I think in his narrow mindedness, he believes this simply to be the only factor in a multi faceted game.

Too bad we didn't get a chance to see if he was going to have 60 cities and dragoons by 1000bc because he quit soon after i stepped into republic and spent 1.5 to 2 minutes in that first turn preparing my cities for celebration including any rehoming or disbanding certain units that this might have entailed. One thing i can promise is that if he was going to have dragoons in whatever year, i would have them too whether i researched Leadership myself or stole or captured the tech the very turn he got it.

Naturally his timer froze again during this city management so he was eager, like a dog wanting to pee on a fire hydrant, to go inside the game and catch me cheating. Apparently this time he couldn't draw any false assumptions or i'm sure we'd be hearing all about his fascinating theories and seeing his posts of the phantom cheat that nobody but him could see. Instead he is using this game to show examples of how he feels i am a poor player in the one instance in five that he was able to muster a luck-aided faster start than me.

[SlowThinker]

tecumseh, I see you left our PBEM and moved here. It is superb here.

[atawa]

Originally posted by EyesOfNight
Yes, go play on a league with about 10 people total playing 1x1x Deity that are incapable of understanding why 1x1x Deity has less options and is thus less competitive than 2x2x King. Oh, and they also have decided that no matter what kind of saves you provide, or evidence you provide, that nobody on their ladder cheats. Even if you've known the guy for 8 years and have removed him 5 times from gameleague. The civ2liga players have all been playing at least 2-3 years and know more than those who were around back in 1999 when people actually still played this game.

Suntsu and Bud are two completely different persons and players.