Tips - wanted.

[fairline]

Interesting tid-bits about the uniform colours

BTW, do you have this link? It has pics from a fantastic Chinese book, which is impossible to get in the west or through Amazon I also have all the Osprey books on the topic, and they're variable in quality IMHO. The McBride illustrations in the first are very good, but some of the others in the later books are poor

http://www.wsbx.com.cn/11/00200/index.htm

[Turno]

Nice link.
Try to look here and here too.

The developers are for the most part chinese.

Ugh.. the most beautiful one is gone... It had plenty of pics and stories about Chunqiu and Zhanguo eras...

[Turno]

The title beta. Still looking for a good red silk background pattern. A mithological figure painted on silk, from the southern state of Chu, beginning of the III century BC

[Turno]

Originally posted by fairline
The McBride illustrations in the first are very good, but some of the others in the later books are poor

I agree, but conceptually they are totally right. Anfd after all they can be integrated, if you checked on the links on the previous post...

Ps i took a look briefly at the Winterfritz scenario...

Point A: there is no civil strife. I plan to make it tough, very tough... To rule in the first part will be pretty tough... Absolutism and Anarchy are going to be the only government forms...

Point B: Cities' size. No Warring States era exceeded the number of 300000 citizens ( max achieved with Lin Tzu, Qi's capital ), so that means quote 7 in Civ2 standards. And no city could exceed one third the size of the capital - that means quote 2. Yuch, it'll going to be hard, really really hard to win... Perhaps i should double the scenario lenght - from 150 to 300 turns or so...

Point C: Chinese is for sure a great civilization, but for sure was in the past one of the dirtiest in the world too... So no aqueduct, and sewing sistem only in Song times or so.

Point D: Tech tree is basically correct, but you lost the sense of direction into it. Many techs were already consolidated at the time. Plus, some states were culturally in the background - Qin and Yan, ie, still practiced human sacrifices in 375 BC...

Point E: Cavalry. Chinese discovered it from nomads, and King Wu Ling of Zhao is credited to be the first to have created one "Lou-fan" ( light mounted archers ) cavalry unit to fight Lim-Hu and - ence the name - Lou Fan Hu princedoms in northern Ordos. 307 BC. Few years later ( 299 BC ), thanks to all of the experience acquired, Zhao was able to whipe out ( let's say extinguish - chines formalism ) Zhongshan Xianyu princedom with a sudden cavalry raid.

Point F: Xiongnu started fro Northern Zhao and Yan territories, as stated in recent Nanshangen excavations that discovered material that seems to be clearly of pre-Xiongnu stages, around small villages between ancient Dai ( Zhao ) and Chi ( Yan ) cities. North of Gu and Lingshou, Zhongshan cities. Check here all the China maps you want.

Point G: despite all of the western believes on the matter, Warring States wars were basically Bronze Ages wars. Iron in war was used only for cheap armours, arrows and interchangeable crossbow pieces, this way saving bronze for more dangerous and lethal weapons.

[Turno]

There are several other errors, too. But definitely as alternative history one, Winterfritz's scenario is very well done.

I just remember something, Fairline. I've snatched some photos - it was forbidden, but oh who cares... - to an exhibit here in Rome, "Cina la nascita di un Impero".

This is a stone parade armour, but similar ones Were made of iron. Sorry for the poor quality, i did it in a hurry and to resize it for uploading...

BTW about the link you gave me. The Chunqiu warrior was designed using materials that come out from Marquis Yi of Zheng's grave escavations.

[Turno]

BTW Fairline do you have this Osprey one, too? How do you judge it as a potential source?

[Turno]

The commoners houses. These are still raw samples.
I'm working on temples, palaces and nobles' houses right now.

A feedback is appreciated.

[fairline]

Originally posted by Turno
BTW Fairline do you have this Osprey one, too? How do you judge it as a potential source?

I'm certainly no expert, and I'm too easily swayed by Angus McBride illustrations, so it's my favourite of all the Osprey Chinese books. My oveririding impression with all of them was a lack of detailed information on the appearance of Chinese warriors, other than rather superficial stuff. The second volume covering the Han is probably best in this respect.

I came across a fantastic forum which had contributions from acedemic researchers on the topic of ancient and medieval Chinese arms and armour:

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?showforum=55

I've just checked this link and it's now dead, which is a real shame

[fairline]

Originally posted by Turno
There are several other errors, too. But definitely as alternative history one, Winterfritz's scenario is very well done.

I just remember something, Fairline. I've snatched some photos - it was forbidden, but oh who cares... - to an exhibit here in Rome, "Cina la nascita di un Impero".

This is a stone parade armour, but similar ones Were made of iron. Sorry for the poor quality, i did it in a hurry and to resize it for uploading...

BTW about the link you gave me. The Chunqiu warrior was designed using materials that come out from Marquis Yi of Zheng's grave escavations.

What period was the armour from? I guess the early armour from the period of your scenario would be as likely to be made from rhino skin (!) as from bronze, iron or leather.

[Turno]

This armour is Qin's. This is a stone parade item. Originals were made of leather scales on fabric basement - the kiai kind, but i'll use iron and/or bronze ones. I've a sample of a ki-wearing warrior, but it's too much aristocratic to fit into my plans - as a matter of fact, Warring states armies were massively based on peasant levies.

Why the "?" ? Rhinoceroses were common in southern China till mid of Warring states period.

Too bad the site is gone, but i've already made a lot of backup from their pages. Must have some drawings depicting several states' warriors on my other PC.

Check out this one too.

[Von Bert]

TITLE :

try look this : http://www.orientaloutpost.com/guan_...all_scroll.php
is a site that sells tapistry, carpets, wall painting about old china.. some good images there..

[Turno]

Nice site VonBert! But those are from Three Kingdoms era. Thanks for the textures, I think i'll use some of those for my Icons.bmp.

Fairline, this is the Ki armoured officer on the chariot i was speaking a few posts ago....

BTW look at what i've just found... The great Zhanguo Ce, or "Record of the Warring States"!

[Turno]

Another interesting site on the Warring States era for you, Fairline.

[tanelorn]

brilliant units G. Trully magnificent. Turno, the DBA online site is a good source for anyone low on cash to spend on Osprey titles...

[Turno]

I know, but sources everytime must be checked.
A remind from my college days.

Nobody gave me a tip on the huts... hmmm.... should i ask more or... yeah of course i should.

Would you please tell me your impressions on this nobles' palaces?