A Slim Victory

[Case]

Originally posted by Boco
Were Aussie recce bns from Jungle divs mounted on Jeeps (or anything)?

When they were converted to jungle divisions the Australian AIF divisions' recce regiments were converted into commando regiments which had almost no vehicles, so they're not comparable with the British/Indian units. The militia divisions which were converted to jungle divisions lost their recce regiment when they were converted.

The Australian 7th Division deployed its recce regiment to New Guinea in early 1942 (before the jungle division conversion) but it was found to be next to useless as its Bren carriers were totally unsuited to combat roles in New Guinean terrain. The regiment was quickly converted to a standard infantry battalion and suffered terrible losses during the battle of Gona-Buna (due to a lack of infantry training, I suspect).

[Boco]

I'm not sure. I suspect there were a few TOE's for recce bns in CBI. Some sources state that Indian infantry divs like the 5th didn't have a recce unit. Others gave the role to a regular infantry bn. I'm not sure that these bns had a distinctive recce TOE. I may simply give these units conventional inf stats with a "see 2 squares" flag.

Also not sure about the recce bns for the two West African divs. Can't imagine that they had a opulent TOE. Not even sure they had trucks.

The 2nd British div did have a dedicated mechanized recce bn. I'll bet it was the best-equipped divisional recce bn in the theater.

Aside from divisional units, there were several bns equipped with scout cars were attached to corps hq's. These were from "Light Cavalry" regiments of the Indian Army. Still working on their TOE.

Any specifics on why Hastings thought the WA divs were sub-par? Was it equipment (i.e. lack of artillery), training, or poorly equipped/supplied? Any particular battle for which he was dismissive for the WA's? How did the WA Chindit column perform?

[Case]

Originally posted by Boco
I'm not sure that these bns had a distinctive recce TOE. I may simply give these units conventional inf stats with a "see 2 squares" flag.

Did the recce battalions ever actually operate as battalions in the CBI? The Australian commando regiments were generally split into independent companies attached to the brigades with the regimental HQ mainly exisiting to perform administrative functions. The commando companies were the size of small battalions though.

Any specifics on why Hastings thought the WA divs were sub-par?

He only devotes a few paragraphs to them, but his view is that the Africans, not unreasonably, weren't very highly motivated and didn't attack as agressively or defend as stubonly as the Indian and British formations.

Hastings writes about an occasion during the fighting in the Burma plains in early 1945 in which two battalions of an East African brigade broke and ran during a Japanese counter-attack, but there generally doesn't seem to have been anything outright bad about the African units. I daresay that they were much better than any of the British/Indian formations in Burma in 1942.

[Boco]

Good point re recce bns! I'm not sure how to handle recce in general. I'd like to get away from omnipotence.

I read a little more of Slim's account. He was impressed with their (81 WA) attack down the Kaladan Valley during 3rd Arakan. Later in the same campaign they lost their gains against a Japanese counterattack — Slim was unimpressed with their defensive mettle.

Don't know the relative merits of EA vs WA.

[Case]

Hypeerwar has recently posted the another volume in the official history of the CBI theatre: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/...and/index.html

[Boco]

That site's one of the best for the US view of CBI and China. I wasn't up to date on it, so thanks!

It seems that the simplest most effective way to encourage a player to fly the hump and build the Ledo road is to simulate part of the campaign in China. If that bait is not part of the scenario, then Agricola won't be the only one to use all those engineers to build a more southerly road enabling an early campaign to retake Rangoon and leave the Ledo road on the drawing board.

At this point, I'm thinking of making a hotseat campaign with Western Allies and Chinese as two human controlled civs. The Chinese Army in India may fall under the Western Allies.

Agricola, Case what did you think of the hotseat idea in Nemo's Second Front? I know you didn't like the funneling of the scenario, but what of this specific trick? Remember that Western Allies and Chinese did not have good intelligence of each other's daily operations.

[EZRhino]

At this point, I'm thinking of making a hotseat campaign with Western Allies and Chinese as two human controlled civs. The Chinese Army in India may fall under the Western Allies.

Agricola, Case what did you think of the hotseat idea in Nemo's Second Front? I know you didn't like the funneling of the scenario, but what of this specific trick? Remember that Western Allies and Chinese did not have good intelligence of each other's daily operations.

IMO that would be a bad idea, especially if the scenario involves lots of units. Second Front was a technical masterpeice... but not very much fun to play.

[Boco]

Did the Hotseat mode play a decisive role in making it unplayable, or was it other stuff?

[Case]

Originally posted by Boco
Agricola, Case what did you think of the hotseat idea in Nemo's Second Front? I know you didn't like the funneling of the scenario, but what of this specific trick?

It bugged me - it was very frustrating to have to send out aircraft to spot targets which the ground units had already spotted and vice-versa and it was anoying that friendly planes could block vital roads it you weren't careful.

However, it would work much better in a CBI scenario as the Burma and Chinese campaigns were effectively seperate and there was little coordination between the two. Any conflicts caused by China theatre units getting in the way of Burma theatre units would also be a plus as this was historically one of the problems the British faced. In short, I like the idea for this scenario.

[Boco]

Well, Case is echoing my thinking when I started considering this. Chang Kai-Shek, Chinese field commanders, Chennault, and Stillwell weren't known for seamless communications.

But...as technically appropriate as this may be, if it's not playable, then I should probably go back to the drawing board. Would 'double spotting' and blind moves be going too far to simulate this?

Anyone else want to weigh in? Is hotseat playable? Is there a better way to simulate the poor coordination between Chinese and Western Allied armies – and encourage diversion of engineers to building the Ledo road?

[McMonkey]

If you play in hotseat you will not see the enemy moves, is that correct?

I think not being able to tell where you are being attacked by the Japanese may be a negative point!

[techumseh]

The problem is that you can't see the enemy moves. You get a message at the start of your turn telling you how many units you've lost.

My advice would be to have the Nationalists as a separate, allied AI controlled civ that gets units from events if the human player performs the required actions. If you succeed, the Chinese will be strong enough to hold Chunking, if not, the point of a Burma campaign is kinda lost, eh?

[Boco]

Can you choose which human-controlled civ is blind, or is it both? It may still be believable if the blindness is limited to the Chinese. American liaisons were kept in the dark a lot during this period.

Still...looks like Plan B, which is pretty much what Tech outlines, may become the way to go. At this point, the required actions will be sending caravans over the hump or up the road so that Wonder(s) can be built in Kunming.

Reading how the Chinese were led, it isn't too much of a stretch to use the AI to govern this civ.

So what about victory conditions? Recovering Burma is easy to measure. What's a way to combine that with keeping the Japanese at bay in China? The British and Americans defined victory differently, especially in 42-44. Maybe I'll just use the sum cities under Western Allied and Chinese control as the criterion.

[techumseh]

Dave, check your PMs.

[techumseh]

What were the Allied strategic objectives in Burma? My guess is that they were:

1. Defend India

2. Keep China in the war

3. Exert pressure on Japan to expedite the Pacific offensive

If you fail in either of the first two, it seems to me that a decisive defeat is unavoidable. You could use the EndGame event to make this unmistakably clear.

If you can retake Burma within specific time frames, then a marginal or decisive victory could result.