A Slim Victory

[McMonkey]

IMHO it would be a sin not to include Gurkas graphically, even if you have to bend the rules slightly. Part of the vibe of this campaign is the diversity of troops used, Chinese, West Africans, Americans, Gurkas, British and Indians. I think all should be represented somehow, even if they are not actually called Gurkas there should be a Kukri wielding unit somewhere

[Boco]

Werd you're right. I'll figure out a way. At this point they may represent parachute battalions.

So, LVT's and Richelieu will be on the what-if list for slots.

Anyone have info on the TOE of Stillwell's Chinese divs? I've read that they had pack 75's and a Sherman unit (battalion?) and possibly some 105's.

What was the most common artillery accompanying a normal Chinese division (e.g. those in Yunnan Anything more than mortars? I've seen references to New Divisions and Alpha Divisions in the Chinese Army. Anyone have info on these? Did any serve in Burma?

Did the DH Mosquito have any significant impact in Burma, or did it fall apart too fast?

Which Spits flew here? I've seen references to V's, VIII's, and IX's, but I don't know relative numbers. With all the other aircraft types, I'd like to limit this to one slot, but don't know if that can be representative. Likewise, can the Hurricane IID and IV be lumped together as one unit slot? Did these have 40mm cannons in Burma?

Anyone have links on Axis sub and naval operations off Burma?

Thanks for the email, Case.

[techumseh]

I'm quite sure they operated Bristol Beaufighters on anti-shipping missions.

[Case]

Originally posted by Boco
So, LVT's and Richelieu will be on the what-if list for slots.

Yeah. I'd put them pretty far down the list, though an interesting 'what if' you might want to consider is whether Churchill won the fight to divert amphibious resources away from the Med and to CBI in 1943 (these would have been used to support landings in Sumatra and the liberation of Rangoon).

Did the DH Mosquito have any significant impact in Burma, or did it fall apart too fast?

I'm pretty sure that I read that the RAF considered the Mosquito unsuitable for Burma. However, the RAAF thought that they were the bees knees for the South West Pacific so this could be wrong.

Did these have 40mm cannons in Burma?

I don't think so. The 'Hurribomber' variant seems to have been the most important type of Hurricane.

Anyone have links on Axis sub and naval operations off Burma?

You can dig around in: http://www.combinedfleet.com/kaigun.htm for the movements of individual ships. However, the long and short of it is that the Japanese didn't deploy many ships in the Indian Ocean after early 1942 and concentrated on keeping the convoy route to Rangoon open. There were occassional Japanese and German submarine attacks on East India but these attacks by individual subs didn't have much of an impact.

[fairline]

Originally posted by Boco
Likewise, can the Hurricane IID and IV be lumped together as one unit slot? Did these have 40mm cannons in Burma?

Yes, probably and yes: all Mk IID and MkIV's had 40mm underwing cannons for ground attack and were used in the Far East as well as the Middle East. MkIV's could replace the gun pods with rockets and had a more powerful Merlin but were similar in all other respects; both types were used exclusively for attack missions and were not air defence types. Mk IID's and IV's were 'Hurribombers'.

The Spit Mk VIII was used extensively in the Far East by the British and Australians.

Tech is right about the importance of the Beaufighter in the Far East ('Whispering death' to the Japanese); it performed all the attack functions of the Mossie and was especially feared by the Japanese in the anti-shipping role.

Edit: Talking of ground-attack aircraft, it's worth including the P-51A's of the US 1st Air Commando Group which were used to support the Chindits. They were Allison-engined rather than Packard-Merlin-engined, so crap in the air defence role, but performed well in ground-attack.

[Boco]

Thanks. That's an eye-opener about the P-51's. I was just assuming D's.

Beaufighter's definitely in, since it was used a lot for ground support, too.

Here's the list of aircraft in the theater that I've seen to date. If you know model letters, post away.

Buffalo
Mohawk
P-40
Hurricane IID, IV
Spitfire V, VIII, IX
Wildcat (from CVE's)
P-47
P-51 A
Vengeance
Blenheim IV
Beaufort
Beaufighter
B-25
Wellington

Nate
Oscar
Tony
Sally
Lily
Dinah
Liberator
Hudson
Catalina

I'll probably use a generic air transport.

Thanks for the IJN link. I had forgotten about that one.

Any info on the Chinese Army in Burma?

[McMonkey]

If it helps then Tanelorn created an excellent Dakota unit for my Nam scn. I am sure he would not mind seing it show up in Burma, and I have no qualms about sharing it

Also there is a good picture of a P51A in one of my earlier posts. It is green with black and white stripes around the fusilage. I am no expert on a/c markings but this one has a different look to any other Mustangs I have seen! I know Royal Marine Commandos were involved in the Arakan at Akyab.

I think I may have some Chinese organizational charts somewhere that I can dig out. The Chinese troops I have seen pictures of wore shorts and and a peaked cap all in Khaki or a mixture of US supplied equipment. Quite different to the Blue Nationalist uniforms I am used to seing in China proper.

[fairline]

Dave, this may be of some use. If you click on the squadon links some have aircraft types operated:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Third_Tactical_Air_Force

I just googled RAF aircraft in Burma to get it, so I would guess you may have it already.

The RAF P-47s would have been P-47D's (razorback P-47Ds were Thunderbolt Mk I's and bubble-canopy P-47D's were Thunderbolt Mk II's). The Mohawk was just the RAF name for a Hawk 75A built in India. The Hurricanes used as fighter aircraft would have been IIB's or IIC's (20mm cannon and .303's rather than the 40mm's of the IID and IV). You could probably rationalise the Hurribomber to one slot as a IID, and include a fighter Mk IIB or C. IIRC Beaufighter Mk X's were used in Burma.

Here's a little snippet on P-47's in RAF service in the Far East:

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p47_17.html

EDIT: I came across a paragraph in a book on the DH Mosquito confirming Case's info: Squadrons which had replaced Beaufighters with Mosquitos quickly re-equiped with Beaufighters again as the tropical heat and humidity caused failures of the Mossie's wooden main spars (and presumably an unfortunate reduction in the number of wings by 2 as a consequence )

[Boco]

Great link, Fairline! I know this site also has several pages on the P-51, too (including an A-36 unit in CBI). In fact he appears to have written several hundred web pages (Pages with "~jbaugher1 on home att net") on aircraft from WWII to present. Does it have an index?

Also found Camouflage and markings of North American P-51 Mustang Part 1 by Rick Kent. Don't know if it's accurate, but it mentions the P-51D in India as well.

I'll put together an AF OOB and post it. I'd be very interested in edits and comments.

[Edit] Thanks Werd! I should warn you, that my pace of scenario makes a snail look very fast. I'll be hashing and rehashing the unit slots several times. [/Edit]

[techumseh]

Are you going to include gliders?

[Boco]

Most likely, but how can I limit the passengers to airmobile units? I'd be disappointed to see Sherman's flying across Burma.

Supply will be a tricky area, too. I'm leaning toward exploiting trade to represent air (over the hump and also into Burma) and ground shipments (i.e. Ledo and Burma Roads). Just need to figure a way to make it very desirable for the player to send them to appropriate places. Will need an economic model that requires trade.

Still brainstorming on uses for multiple maps.

This pencil and paper phase is kinda fun!

[techumseh]

Options: house rule, or airborne reinforcements via events as in OMG. Since airborne ops require so much advance planning, it makes sense to do it that way. Glad to help if you require it.

Supply can also be done via events, or use airports with a house rule.

[Boco]

Thanks Tech! I was considering the OMG model as well. It might actually encourage Agricola to capture a city rather than eliminate all defenders but not enter it.

One thing his beta test has shown me is the need to attach tempting carrots to CityTaken triggers, not just AI reinforcements.

I may simulate the hump with airports (e.g. Ledo to Kunming), but I also want to explore a trade model (freights airlifted by aircraft). Perhaps if there is a net deficit in cash flow each turn, the player would find it advisable to make cash with freights. Then if I can tweak things so that the best places to send freights make historical sense....

The minor detail, though, is that players will find it highly desirable to send supplies to the Japanese! Maybe I can force freights to require airlift for any significant mobility. Then keep air transport (i.e. a para-transport) so limiting that a player can't afford to lose it. Maybe then the player will land the paratrooper transport on airbases or cities that are well defended.... Rats! This is chock full of flaws, and it's late.

[Case]

Originally posted by Boco
Here's the list of aircraft in the theater that I've seen to date. If you know model letters, post away.

While they probably don't warrant a slot, USAAF B-29s from the force which attempted to attack Japan via forward bases in China attacked Rangoon and ports in Siam and Malaya at times.

Incidently, I was just skimming one of my books and the battleship HMS Queen Elizabeth provided support to at least one of the British landings on the Burmese coast in early 1945 so it may well be worth including a generic battleship in some form.

[McMonkey]

In WWII Europa I attempted to make trade vital in an attempt to make the Battle of the Atlantic necessary. It worked quite well. Agricola exploited it by trading with Axis Amsterdam, no way of stopping that other than a house rule. In Version 2 I will create trade through events but will allow rehoming. Hopefully this way my tree will stay roughly accurate.

I like the idea of a (para-sea transport) airlift plane crossing the Hump and a supply convoy unit for the Burma Road. This is one of the hardest aspects of the game to plan for as so much depends on the individual player and how many trade units they churn out. For this reason events based trade seems to make most sense. Once the Allies have pushed the Japanese back far enough you could give them extra economic improvements to compensate for the diminishing trade routes available.