A Slim Victory

[Case]

Originally posted by Boco
Anyone know where I can find TOE's for any of the formations involved? I'm trying to get an idea of what artillery was used.

Dave, three years ago I put together (but never completed) a TOAW scenario on Operation Zipper, the British amphibious liberation of Malaya which was scheduled for September 1945 (and which went ahead in a slightly modified form after the Japanese surrender as this was the quickest way to bring Malaya back under British control). As part of this I did a fair bit of research on the British TOEs, which turned out to be an ultimately pointless exercise in frustration.

In short, the British formations in the CBI always had basically the same TOE as all other British units, but tended to have older equipment and less trucks, etc and different scales of small arms. Not suprisingly, the units rarely had their full allocation of equipment until 1944-45 and most of them seemed to deviate a bit from the 'paper' TOE in response to local conditions anyway. I think that Slim goes into this a bit in his book but I'd have to look up the specifics..

In terms of artillery the only bit that sticks in my mind is that the late-war British/Indian/African infantry divisions in Burma had two regiments [= battalions] of 24 pounders and a regiment of 3.7 inch mountain guns rather than the standard allocation of three regiments equipped with 24 pounders. I think that the British also used a large number of Australian 'Baby 25s' in Burma, but I'm not sure for how long (these guns had a nasty habit of exploding and killing their crew and were only used when the standard 25-pounders couldn't be brought into action). Due to the Burmese geography it was very hard to move artillery around so medium artillery and larger was pretty rare and dive bombers were generally used in the roles filled by large calibre artillery elsewhere.

I wasn't able to find anything unusual on the Japanese TOEs in the theatre so its safe to assume that they used what they used everywhere else, if that's of any help. The Japanese artillery was generally limited to 75mm guns with relatively small numbers of 105mm and 150mm guns for counter-battery work. The 75mm guns were pretty good though.

Unfortunetely the most of the sites which I remember using are no longer active so I can't post the best links. If you PM me your email address (which I've lost ) I'll send you the files I downloaded, which includes a very useful OOB and TOE for the British forces between 1944 and 1945. The only links which seem to still be working are: http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/017_britain/__uk.htm and http://orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/014_japan/__ighq.htm which are invaluable for Britain and Japan.

[Boco]

I also read that in some cases the anti-tank battalions were issued 3" mortars to give them something to do in this theater. Any idea on how widespread that practice was?

[McMonkey]

I have found some excellent maps but unfortunately my scanner is not playing ball since I rebooted my PC. On the plus side my old printer seems to be goung again after a year! I hate technology GRRR!
I will post the maps as soon as the scanner is operational again

[fairline]

Originally posted by Case


Dave, three years ago I put together (but never completed) a TOAW scenario on Operation Zipper, the British amphibious liberation of Malaya which was scheduled for September 1945 (and which went ahead in a slightly modified form after the Japanese surrender as this was the quickest way to bring Malaya back under British control). As part of this I did a fair bit of research on the British TOEs, which turned out to be an ultimately pointless exercise in frustration.

In short, the British formations in the CBI always had basically the same TOE as all other British units, but tended to have older equipment and less trucks, etc and different scales of small arms. Not suprisingly, the units rarely had their full allocation of equipment until 1944-45 and most of them seemed to deviate a bit from the 'paper' TOE in response to local conditions anyway. I think that Slim goes into this a bit in his book but I'd have to look up the specifics..

In terms of artillery the only bit that sticks in my mind is that the late-war British/Indian/African infantry divisions in Burma had two regiments [= battalions] of 24 pounders and a regiment of 3.7 inch mountain guns rather than the standard allocation of three regiments equipped with 24 pounders. I think that the British also used a large number of Australian 'Baby 25s' in Burma, but I'm not sure for how long (these guns had a nasty habit of exploding and killing their crew and were only used when the standard 25-pounders couldn't be brought into action). Due to the Burmese geography it was very hard to move artillery around so medium artillery and larger was pretty rare and dive bombers were generally used in the roles filled by large calibre artillery elsewhere.

I guess that Indian Army units would have been equipped with 18/25-pdrs in '41, to be replaced with 25-pdrs later, although this is pure speculation based on arty in the Middle East in early '41.

Would chindits have used pack-75's or did they stick with 3.7" mtn guns?

Case, were there AGRE's in the Burma campaign?

[Case]

Originally posted by Boco
I also read that in some cases the anti-tank battalions were issued 3" mortars to give them something to do in this theater. Any idea on how widespread that practice was?

I'm not sure. The Australian Army's AT battalions and infantry battalion AT platoons in the South West Pacific seem to have been equipped with both 4.2" mortars and either 2 pdr or 6 pdr AT guns and used whichever weapon was more useful in the situation. The Australian Army disbanded most of its AT battalions in 1943 and 1944 as they were not needed even when it was possible to actually move their guns.

Originally posted by fairline
Case, were there AGRE's in the Burma campaign?

Yes: 471 Army Group Royal Engineers, 472 Army Group Royal Engineers and 474 Army Group Royal Engineers were active in 1945.

The only Army Group Royal Artillery in my OOB is the 61st AGRA which consisted of one heavy AA [= equipped with 3.7" AA guns) and three light AA regiments [= equipped with 40mm bofors] in August 1945.

[fairline]

Oops, I meant AGRA's

What about the rest of the standard Commonwealth Div TO&E in Burma? Were recce regiments used? Were the mid-War experiments with mixed tank bde / infantry bde divisions replicated in the Burma theatre?

[Case]

Originally posted by fairline
Were recce regiments used?

Yes, at least in the British Divisions, but they seem to have used lighter vehicles than the equivalent units in Africa and Europe. The Indian divisions had recce regiments but my source says "I am unsure how the infantry battalions tasked as recce units in the Indian divisions were organized"

Were the mid-War experiments with mixed tank bde / infantry bde divisions replicated in the Burma theatre?

I don't believe so - these seem to have been a short lived experiment restricted to North Africa and the NZ 2nd Division was the only formation to keep this structure for more than a few months (the New Zealanders liked it because they couldn't supply enough reinforcements to keep three infantry brigades up to strength during the Tunisian and Italian campaigns).

[Boco]

Originally posted by Case
Yes, at least in the British Divisions, but they seem to have used lighter vehicles than the equivalent units in Africa and Europe. The Indian divisions had recce regiments but my source says "I am unsure how the infantry battalions tasked as recce units in the Indian divisions were organized"

I suspect some employed armoured cars. It appears that some (2?) of the Indian divisions were motorized, while others were more like the Australian Jungle Div TOE. I don't know about the recce for the 'jungle' divs.

"The Indian Army, 1914-1947" by Ian Sumner
Of the cavalry regiments existing in 1939 seven had become armoured regiments by 1945, equipped af first with M3 Stuarts and then with M4 Shermans.... One regiment, the Scinde Horse, remained a Frontier Armoured Regiment throughout the war, but the remainder served as reconnaissance regiments equipped with a variety of armoured cars. During 1941 and 1942 these were usually South African-made Marmon-Herringtons or Morris types, converting as the war progressed to Humbers and Daimlers and in Italy to Staghounds. India's only home-made AFV, the Indian Pattern Carrier, was used to equip some units, such as the Guides Cavalry and the Central India Horse, until the end of the war.

His statement on tanks is is slightly contradicted by:

"Meiktila 1945" by EM Young
Slim had two Indian tank brigades in 14th Army, the veteran 254th Indian Tank Brigade, equipped with Lee and Grant tanks, and the 255th Indian Tank Brigade, which had not seen combat but was equipped with the more capable Sherman tank.

The tank component (all Shermans) of the 255th was composed of the 116th Rgt RAC (Gordon Highlanders), 9 Cavalry (Royal Deccan Horse), and 5 Lancers (Probyn's Horse). The 16th Light Cavalry had at least some Stuarts. Its motorized infantry was the 4/4 Bombay Grenadiers.

The 254th appeared to have a similar organization.

One of these books shows a bren gun carrier associated with the 2nd British Division. What kind of unit in this division would have been mounted on these? Recce only? It also appears that the division's infantry was motorized. Have any information corroborating or contradicting this?

How close did the Richelieu get to Burma?

[Edit]Here's a useful link with OOB and LoC information: "Operations in Burma and NE India from November 1943 to June 1944" in a supplement to the London Gazette, 13 March, 1951 (3.6 MB link)[/Edit]

[Case]

Originally posted by Boco
I don't know about the recce for the 'jungle' divs.

The Recce Regiments in Australian divisions were converted to 'Cavalry/Commando' regiments when these divisions were converted from motorised to light infantry formations in 1943-44 and proved very effective in the kinds of missions the US Rangers performed. The Australian jungle divisions were a unique Australian organisation, however, and the British equivalents would have had a somewhat different structure.

One of these books shows a bren gun carrier associated with the 2nd British Division. What kind of unit in this division would have been mounted on these? Recce only? It also appears that the division's infantry was motorized. Have any information corroborating or contradicting this?

The OOB I downloaded from orbat.com states:

The 2nd Infantry Division’s recce regiment had a different organization than that found in Europe, where such units were light armoured. This had 3 recce squadrons (each 1 light recce car at HQ, an infantry troop (carrier section, 21 men and 8 carriers; 2 infantry sections) and an assault troop (3 sections). It had a fourth recce squadron, also with 1 light recce car at HQ and 3 assault troops (3 sections each). I am unsure how the infantry battalions tasked as recce units in the Indian divisions were organized.

However, it's important to note that the Bren carrier was used in just about every possible role, and they were issued to most combat units within British infantry divisions, especially those with heavy things to move around such as infantry battalion mortar platoons and signals outfits, so the carrier could be operating in any role.

How close did the Richelieu get to Burma?

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_...ship_Richelieu she was in the Indian Ocean from April 1944 but there's no mention of operations off Burma. She was to provide fire support for the liberation of Malaya so I imagine that there was no particular reason why she couldn't have served in a similar role off Burma.

[fairline]

Originally posted by Boco

I suspect some employed armoured cars. It appears that some (2?) of the Indian divisions were motorized, while others were more like the Australian Jungle Div TOE. I don't know about the recce for the 'jungle' divs.


His statement on tanks is is slightly contradicted by:


The tank component (all Shermans) of the 255th was composed of the 116th Rgt RAC (Gordon Highlanders), 9 Cavalry (Royal Deccan Horse), and 5 Lancers (Probyn's Horse). The 16th Light Cavalry had at least some Stuarts. Its motorized infantry was the 4/4 Bombay Grenadiers.

The 254th appeared to have a similar organization.

One of these books shows a bren gun carrier associated with the 2nd British Division. What kind of unit in this division would have been mounted on these? Recce only? It also appears that the division's infantry was motorized. Have any information corroborating or contradicting this?

You have to be careful here - Indian Army divs served in N. Africa and Italy and the reference to Marmon-Herrington a/c's almost certainly refers to N. Africa. They were used extensively by Commonwealth recce regts and armoured car regts in Libya alongside Morris C9B's until more capable types appeared like the Humber and Daimler.

As Case says, the Universal carrier was used by pretty much every element of Commonwealth Divisions that either had something heavy to carry, like the MG companies, or were involved in recce. The main combat element of recce and armoured car regiments were the C9B, Dingo, Marmon-Herrington and even Rolls-Royce ac's in the early war period, with Humbers, Daimlers, Staghounds and AEC's used in the second half of the war. There were no formations equiped solely with carriers, other than the MG Bns which were split up to support the infantry bns in combat.

Motorised infantry were transported in lorries with the exception of the single bn attached to an armoured brigade (not a tank brigade - these were infantry support formations usually attached to an infantry div). These boys tooled around in M3 and M5 half-tracks in the later war period, but I'm not sure if they were lorried or equiped with carriers earlier on.

[Boco]

Thanks! I'm evolving toward 1-2 armored car slots and 0 bren gun carrier slots. During development, I'll rely on hex wargame symbols in my units.bmp. After an alpha test or two, I'll start scrounging and begging, but willing to pay double my usual rate.

This link, Battlefront: WWII — British & Commonwealth TO&Es v1.03, 14th Army, October 1943 to August 1945 (Burma Frontier Theatre of Operations) By R Mark Davies in PDF format (20 pages), has a lot of TOE info and a bibliography, but I'm unsure of its accuracy. If you seen any errors, let me know. It does appear the echo Case's quote on the 2nd Div recce.

[Boco]

Gurkhas?

This will likely be a brigade and battalion scale scenario. Much as I like the fun factor they can bring, Gurkhas will only occupy a unit slot if they operated independently of parent units or Chindits.

Know of any independent ops by Gurkhas in this campaign? Perhaps in Arakan? I only read about the 4 battalions in the Chindits and one trained for airborne ops. AFAIK, the others that served here were part of Indian infantry brigades.

[Case]

I think that there were some Gurkha brigades and there was a whole Gurkha division in Malaya after WW2. However, as you note most Gurkha battalions seem to have severed as part of general Indian Army brigades.

[Boco]

The only Gurkha bde I've found served in Italy. Still looking though. I may use Gurkhas to represent Indian Parachute Bns.

What was used for river crossings? I see a smattering of references to assault boats (brought overland from Imphal) and DUKW's. I'm guessing that LVT's never made it to this theater.

Looks like I'll need to re-examine what Tech did for OMG's bridges.

[Case]

Originally posted by Boco
What was used for river crossings?

Assault boats and DUKWs sound likely, and Slim writes that the longest Bailey Bridge in the world (1,154 feet long) was built across the Chindwin river in early December 1944 on page 366 of my copy of Defeat into Victory.

I'm guessing that LVT's never made it to this theater.

From memory, they only arrived at the very end of the war and the 3rd Commando Brigade (which was a Royal Marine outfit) and 5th Parachute Brigade (of all units!) were to have been equipped with them for the liberation of Malaya. The British made extensive use of small amphibious craft during the fighting along the Burmese coast throughout the war.