"Rise and Fall of Teutonic Order"

[Von Bert]

Originally posted by Elensar
As far as I can tell, the Teutonic Knights weren't exactly..."Nazi" (you'd know better than I do, but this is my impression), but they were pro-German, anti-Slav, and/or Catholic fanatics.

Sure..they were as u say.
But Nazi propaganda was filled with reference to those old-german-warrior.. and the Drag nach Osten - (Push to the East) idea.. was a teutonic idea..
Then the behavior of this "knights" was not so.. kind and noble.. they did to the prussian original tribes (pagan ) a treatment of total distruction..and extermination..
not so uncommon in middle age.. but still another "nazi's" hobby..
Anyway we'r not here to discuss political influence in history.. but to simulate and play with history ! just wanted to joke..

and thanks again, u got good ideas indeed.. and im sure i ll be inspired by what u wrote..
(now.. i finish w job .. i go home.. and CIV !!!!! and i really ll work ! )

Scenario obiective ? mmh.. maybe use civ score ?.. yep.. but it must be tested i suppose ..

[Elensar]

True enough.

Hm. What are you doing for governments?

You could make the Teutonic knights a Fundementalist government and their "Teutonic special units" be "fundementalist only", which would save a technology...and quite possibly fit the Order.

Monarchy or (renamed and possibly tinkered with) Communism fit everyone else, I believe.

Are you using barbarians, in the Civ sense? If so, a Wonder idea (for the Teutons)

Teutonic Order (becomes out of date after a major defeat and tech arrival, forget the name of the battle...Tannenburg of something similar)

"Sire, we cannot stand up against the lances of the Teutonic knights! Cease-fire signed!" instead of the normal Great Wall "must sign a cease-fire" message.

Not sure you want all Teutonic cities to have City Walls, but if you don't mind that, it would be a good way to represent them as fearsome foes.

[Von Bert]

governments?
complete void ! so.. any idea is welcome...

"fundementalist only, which would save a technology" ... mmhh.. i dont get it.. sorry.. why ?
but wiht fundamentalism.. they wll loose in tech/research ??

scenario will begin 1199 when the order was given some land in north poland..(soon abandonig the holy-land) so..they were little at that time .. not so powerful..
maybe they must grow ?.. even in governament?

We(players) like civ, and we like research nice/powerful units ..
so.. i thoughts that maybe would be better if THE "basic-order Knight" .. is not there at the start...but must be researched..
..adding your ideas.. WHEN teutonic reach some tech/gov.. they can build their panzer-knight.. ?

Tannenberg yeah.. after that battle was just a slow decadence..

WOnder? mmhh..sure is a good idea..but that wonder would have to be distrupted at certain year.. to make them quiete un-able to resist to polish-lithuanian.. russian.. and tartar going in and out..

Barbarians ? the basic idea was to have them as the Prussian Tribes..but then i thoughts better give this poor old-prussian a civ on their own.. ( and maybe a challenging game for human players )
So.. Barbarian now .. what they do ?
Plague ? Wild animals ? Bandits moving around ?

[Elensar]

If you make the Teutonic units "Fundementalist only", you make it so you don't need a "Not Teutonic" technology for the other tribes.
Regarding research: I believe you can edit the percentage of science lost to 0 (or at least, less than 50), so their science rate will be just fine.

Sounds good. What I would suggest.
You start with a small (Size 3 or less, I think) city, one Pioneers, one Elite Knights (Panzer Knights? Name as desired) and whatever else. Don't make researching the Order's Knights take too long, though.
Instead of making the Order Knights take research, maybe have "Early Teutonic Knights" (with a shorter name, of course) buildable from the start, but the later, advanced ones take research.

If Tannenburg is when the Order begain a slow decline, then use that to make the wonder out of date.

If you don't like "city walls in all cities", make the "Polish Elite" unit and whatever others fit those that should be able to take Teutonic cities, even with walls, just ignore City Walls.

Plague...up to you, do you think that's a significant factor in this time period? Good use of the nuke slot if so...very good represntation of the impact.
But yeah, bandits, wild animals, some Pagan Warriors(maybe), and anything else that really doesn't belong to any of the factions. I believe the Hammer of the North (download from the Civilization Fanatics site) scenario makes good use of the Barbarians, and is also a good example of a Medieval scenario. Worth looking over for more than just graphics.

[Patine]

As my two-bits, I've always had a theory about science improvements in a Civ 2 European-based Medieval scenario (though I haven't finished one myself). I always thought the Library should be a Blacksmith, as many refinements of military technology were done in such places, Universities should be Monastaries, as monks did much of the academic research of the era, and Research Labs should be actual Libraries, as such collections were rare, and invaluable to the science of the day.

[Von Bert]

UNITS - Order of Battle
Im a wargamer(too) so..in that hobby i found many rules/system for simulations. One of the most famous wargame system for ancient/middleage battles with little soldiers is DBM/DBA. This DBM gives order of battles for practically ANY ancient army ! (yeap.. ANY ! ) so.. the "basic" UNITS list i wish present u here it comes mainly from there, and it should be somehow"historical"...
but we all know that Civ2 need some more "study"..
this list is just the beginning..is not "closed".
anyway.. here i go:


TEUTONIC ORDER
A D M H/F Unit
8 3 3 -/- Ritterbruder (Order Knights ) - Kn(S)R
6 2 3 -/- German crusader - Kn(O)I
5 1 4 -/- Knechte (crossbow cavalry) - Cv(I)R
4 1 5 -/- Turkopolen - Lh(O)R
5 2 4 -/- Prussian Cav. - Cv(O)I
2 1 5 -/- Livonian horse archer -Lh(F)I
5 4 2 -/- Spearmen - Sp(O)R
3 4 2 -/- Order crossbow - Bw(O)R
2 4 3 -/- Feudal crossbow - Bw(O)I
3 3 2 -/- Burghers spearman - Sp(I)I
2 2 3 -/- Hordes subjugated - Hd(O)I
4 5 2 -/- English Longbowmen - Bw(S)R (just 1 units..)
4 3 3 -/- Handgunners - Ps(S)R (after tech Gunpowder)
- - - --- Big Guns - Art(S)R (" " )
7 2 3 -/- Livonian Brothers of the Sword- Kn(O)R (just 1 units..)

PRUSSIAN TRIBES
A D M H/F Unit
5 2 4 -/- Cavalry - Cv(O)I
4 2 3 -/- Warriors - Wb(F)I
2 2 3 -/- Militians - Ax(I)I
1 3 3 -/- Archers - Bw(I)I

LITHUANIAN
A D M H/F Unit
3 1 5 -/- Cavarly - Lh(O)I
3 3 3 -/- Spearmen Ax(O)I
1 3 3 -/- Archers - Bw(I)I
2 2 3 --- Slingers - Ps(O)I
5 2 6 --- Tartar exile - Lh(S)R (after 1299)

RUSSIAN/NOVGOROD
A D M H/F Unit
6 3 4 --- Dvor - Cv(S)I
5 2 4 --- Boyar cavalry - Cv(O)I
3 3 1 --- Militia spearmen - Sp(I)I
1 3 3 --- Militia Bowmen - Bw(I)I
2 1 3 --- Paesants - Hd(F)I
4 2 5 --- Tartar/cossacks - Lh(S)I
2 2 3 --- Foot cossacks - Ps(O)I
4 3 3 -/- Handgunners - Ps(S)R (after tech Gunpowder,1480ca.)
- - - --- Light guns - Art(I)R

POLISH
A D M H/F Unit
5 2 4 --- Noble cavalry - Cv(O)I
3 3 1 --- Spearmen - Sp(I)I
2 4 3 --- Bowmen- Bw(O)I
2 2 3 --- Slingers - Ps(O)I
4 2 2 --- Axeman - Bd(I)I
7 3 3 --- upgraded Noble cavalry - Kn(S)I (after 1242)
4 2 5 --- Lithuanian- Lh(S)I
3 4 2 --- Militia crossbow - Bw(O)R
5 2 5 --- Tartars - Lh(S)R

MONGOL/TARTAR
A D M H/F Unit
7 3 4 --- Guard - Cv(S)R
6 2 4 --- Cavalry - CV(O)R
5 2 5 --- Light Cavalry - Lh(S)R
2 1 6 --- Cumans - Lh(F)I
1 1 2 --- Civilians enslaved Hd(I)I
--- Catapults Art(S)
2 4 3 --- Bowmen- Bw(O)I

DANE/SWEDISH

(..) to be continued..


LEGENDA (from DBM system)
-Types and basic CIV 2 value-
Knight (Kn): 6a 2d 3m
Cavalry (Cv): 5a 2d 4m
Light cav. (Lh): 3a 1d 5m
Spearmen (Sp): 4a 4d 2m
Pikes (Pk) : 3a? 4d 2m
Blades (Bd): 5a 3d 2m
Warband (Wb): 4a 3d 2m
Auxiliairy (Ax): 3a 3d 3m
Bowman (Bw): 2a 4d 2/3m ?
Psiloi (Ps) light troops: 2a 2d 3m
Hordes (Hd): 2a 2d 2m
Elephant (El): 6a 2d 3m
Artillery (Art): ???

then.. troops can be
(O) Ordinary
(S) Superior
(I) Inferior
(F) fast ( light )

and to finish Regular or Irregular

So.. ie..."Kn(S)R" are Knight-superior-regular .. as the teutonic knights.
( in this post i did talk about this "system"http://civilization2.net/forums/show...threadid=74736 if somebody is interested i may give requested order of battle and describe/discuss better the traslation/system i tried)

[McMonkey]

I think the DBM / DBA unit categorizing system would work very well in Civ. It will provide you with a good basis to work from and if you go wrong you have a template to go back to.

Your initial units list looks very good. I have an Osprey book on Lake Peipus and I will have a read through it to see if I can think of anything that may help.

I also have some good info on Saule 1236, Neva 1240, Kulikovo 1380, Grunwald 1410 and Chojnice (Conitz) 1454 that I could post if it is of interest. It is not too indepth but is very concise!
I am not an expert in this period so I would enjoy copying it out!

[Elensar]

5 4 2 -/- Spearmen - Sp(O)R

Spearmen with high attack?

Foot Cossacks? Um, okay. (I'm sure this makes sense to those who know more, or they wouldn't be included)

Other than that, seems good. Although it also seems offense friendly (which may be a good thing in this scenario).

[Von Bert]

@WERD
thanks,i like Osprey too.. (and u know DBM? )
but i dont have info on that battles..so.. sure, thanks i ll read it gladly
and welcome any ideas..

@ELENSAR
yep.. spearmen a bit stong in attack..u know.. that numbers are just calculated using a simple formula from the value they have in DBM wargame rules... so .. maybe i just made the formula wrong !!!
and need some adjustement sure..

but another factor is there.. the COST.. cause the value of 1 regular spearmen .. is maybe as 2-3 irregular spearman..
i mean.. on a wargame table the teutonic army fight a 1:2 maybe , regulary outnumbered.. but with some stronger units..

and other factor will be the TERRAIN.. as most of map will be "wild"..not open.. so maybe the defensive side ll gain something ??
AND i just considered that some defensive unit as STOCKADE/FORTRESS (from colony3) or similar would fit here..
maybe.. "TOWER".. and "CASTLE" ?
so that in open field the chances of prussians ll be low.. but more hard to conquer their towns..


BUT.. you are right and tha list need a GOOD re-thinking !!
i know.. :S
and check wich units are the same... and simulate some battles.. and create a chain of tech development.. and make up ruels so that on the map ll not show up Polish-Teutonik-knights after few turns ...
so much things to do.. and im soooooo slow...

[Elensar]

It seems good.

And I know the Teutonic Knights were good fighters, its just that spearmen, tactically, are more defensive than those stats. But see how it works in play, that's the important part.

[Von Bert]

(Hi ! ) sure.. but, again, the value are calculated with a little formula thta maybe is un-balanced..
and need the usual thing.. we know..
TESTING !

[McMonkey]

Saule 1236

This text is copied from a book called Battle by R.G. Grant

Also good info and map at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_saule

SWORD BRETHREN CAMPAIGNS
Saule
Date: 22 September 1236
Location: Saule (Siaulai), Lithuania
Forces: Livonians; Unknown; Lithuanians; Unknown
Casualties: Livonian Knights: around 50 killed

The Livonian Bretheren of the Sword was a military order established in 1204 to protect Christian colonists around the Baltic from pagan attack. In September 1236, the Livonian leader Volquin Schenk led an expedition into pagan territory but was routed by the Lithuanians. Their leader Mindaugas, used light cavalry armed with javelins, which were hurled at short range - highly effective against unwieldy Livonian heavy cavalry. Chronicler Petrus von Dusburg records the Livonians were "cut down like women".

Hope this gives you food for thought! I will post a few more of the entries from this excellent book!

[Von Bert]

(ERROr in my post)

[Von Bert]

Thank you, grazie !
u typed it ?
i shell then pay my debt.. maybe some nice terrain4 vietnam will fit ?

Lithunanian cav ? :O i got it !
coloumn8, row3 of units.gif ... 3 1 5 -/- Cavarly - Lh(O)I
with javeline...

and maybe the cruelty of teutonic was just matchin the torture they received when captured by wild-prussian.. also wikipedia tell about "captive knights cooked over fire inside their armor .."
:S

[McMonkey]

Neva 1240

Not a problem mate. Don't worry about paying me back (although some resource type graphics would be cool!)
I had a quiet day at work today so I typed out a few other bits that may be of interest. To be honest it was a quiet day and this helped pass the time!

RUSSO - SWEDISH WAR

Neva 1240

Date: 15th July 1240
Location: Confluence of Neva and Izhora rivers, Russia
Forces: Swedes; unkown; Novgoroders; unknown
Casualties: No reliable estimates

In July 1240 a Swedish army led by Birger Jarl attacked the prosperous Russian city of Novgorod. The Swedish army included Norwegian and Finnish contingents; the invasion was ostensibly launched to punish the Novgoroders for encroaching on the lands of their Finnish allies, but the Swedes also sought to gain control over the mouth of the Neva river and bar Russian access to the Baltic. Prince Alexander Yaroslavovitch, the son of Prince Yaroslav of Vladimir, led a small Russian army up the Volkhov river to defend Novgorod. He approached the Swedish camp under cover of thick fog, and launched a surprise attack before the Swedes could assail the city itself. The Swedish army was soundly defeated, and survivors were able to flee across the Izhora river only because of the poor light. After the battle Alexander was given the nickname "Nevski" ("of the Neva") in honour of his victory. The success at the Neva saved Russia from an all-out invasion from the north at a time when it faced attack from the Mongols in the east. After his victory, Alexander argued with the rulers of Novgorod, who thought that his growing influence posed a threat to them, and he was exiled from the city!