Getting the Stragglers Out

[McMonkey]

I have to agree with AGRICOLA on this. The huts are just unnecessary I guess you just have to assume there are huts about without actually showing them. The major cities are enough.

[Sarsstock]

I have to admit I had a soft spot for those huts, but I suppose the new graphics provided by Agricola do make it look somewhat more appropriate for a WW2 Pacific theater war scenario.

[AGRICOLA]

Originally posted by Patine
Point taken. I'll put that on my fix list. I just hope you're not too upset at that to continue. I really value for input.

Relax, I'm not upset, just puzzled by:

Why I didn't mention the terrain graphics in my earlier playtest; I definitely should have.
Why nobody else has mentioned it, considering that it appears to be a problem.

But, after my previous test turned out to be an alpha test of something that you had not played your way through, I wouldn't mind knowing if v1.3 is a beta that you have played in its entirety.

For example, are you satisfied that the change from Monarchy to Fundamentalism hasn't upset the balance? The more rapid science rate under Monarchy means that Japan will be able to build the awesome Shinden, a killer unit if there ever was one, by turn 5 or 6, even without delivering any freights. On the negative side, can Japan cope with a 30%+ corruption rate?

Without RR's, I hope that you have examined what massive airlifting of freights will do to the scen.

The Readme suggests that:
"Make the Philipines [sic], Burma, Malaya, Singapore, Hong Kong, the Dutch East Indies, New Guinea, the Solomons, the Aletians [sic], and Hawaii your first priority. Taking them all by mid-1942 will make the events work best (and you should begin with enough forces to do it)."

I kind of disagree about some of the above.

"Taking them all by mid-1942 will make the events work best" sounds very much like something a player might do well to avoid like the plague.

"(and you should begin with enough forces to do it)", could well be, but with Japanese forces thoroughly dispersed and no significant increase in the number of productive cities, then what?

To my way of thinking, the first priority is China, in order to eliminate one opponent and to open the road to India. After that, the first real target is India, where there are large cities that can contribute to the Japanese war effort. Singapore, Hong Kong and the Philippines are certainly first strike targets, but the East Indies need to be taken only when it is time to create a route to Australia and a sub proof shipping route back to the Home Islands. Hawaii is a tossup. I consider that there is little to be gained in capturing the small, unproductive cities in Burma, the Solomons, New Guinea and Aleutians.

[Patine]

Hideki Tojo would have done better with an advisor like you, AGRICOLA. I perhaps am scripting it a little to tightly. Since I can't prevent your pragmatic logic with pleas to follow the mistakes of past leaders, please feel free to use your tactics and we'll see what can be made of that as a playtest. May allow me to craft more adaptable events.

[techumseh]

Except that the real objective was the Dutch East Indies, because that's where the oil was - the real reason Japan went to war. The scenario should reflect this.

[AGRICOLA]

Originally posted by Patine
Hideki Tojo would have done better with an advisor like you, AGRICOLA. I perhaps am scripting it a little to tightly. Since I can't prevent your pragmatic logic with pleas to follow the mistakes of past leaders, please feel free to use your tactics and we'll see what can be made of that as a playtest. May allow me to craft more adaptable events.

Well, this points out the vast difference between what is possible in a scen and was historically possible. All the good advice in the world couldn't have given Japan either the necessary military strength or the industrial capacity to conquer China, much less India or Australia. The only good advice would have been to withdraw to Manchuria, make peace with China and try to mend fences with the U.S. The sad part is that no one who mattered would have listened at a time when their allies were approaching Moscow.

IMHO, all historical scens are actually exercises in 'what if' and alternate history, and a helluva lot of fun because one can use historical facts as a yardstick to measure one's tactical and strategic skills.


So, have you played the scen yourself?

[Exile]

Don't forget . . . .

Also tin, rubber, bauxite, iron ore, copper, zinc, and lead. It wasn't called the southern resource area for no reason.

[AGRICOLA]

Originally posted by techumseh
Except that the real objective was the Dutch East Indies, because that's where the oil was - the real reason Japan went to war. The scenario should reflect this.

That is a very, very valid point. The scen does reward the capture of Balikpapan but not to the same extent that it historically rewarded the Japanese. The freight that the scen spawns every month in Balikpapan is not nearly as important as the real oil was to the Japanese.

I don't know if much can be done about this without unbalancing the scen. A couple of oil resource squares generating a lot of trade arrows might be all that can be done.

Originally posted by Exile
Also tin, rubber, bauxite, iron ore, copper, zinc, and lead. It wasn't called the southern resource area for no reason.

That seems to be fairly represented by 3 monthly freights that are spawned in Thailand, India and Australia.

[Patine]

I have done a playtest, and all the events work, though I followed the formula of action detailed in my readme, for the most part. Your playtest may find unexpected results.

[Exile]

Take a look at Kinder and Hilgeman's Anchor Historical atlas, p. 174-5. It's all in the east indies and philipines, but especially on Sumatra. (Sars, you might also take a look at pages 172-3 as well.)

[Cyrion]

Originally posted by AGRICOLA
A couple of oil resource squares generating a lot of trade arrows might be all that can be done.

Yes, that is the most obvious solution (thanks to Nemo and Red Front! ).

I haven't tested the scen yet (no time for that now ), so I don't know if this could be done for it, but it might at least provide a solution for a similar problem in another scen:
- maybe there could be 2 infantry (or airplanes, tanks, or whatever) units with similar fighting/moving stats and graphics, but with a really different cost (and different pre-requisite)
- the player would have only the tech to build the more expensive one from the start; when the ressource-rich city (which you, as a designer, want to make a primary objective) is taken, then the player receives the tech allowing to build the cheaper unit (more ressources means easier production)
- and if your scen is for ToT, should the city be lost then the tech can be removed!
- you could even make different cities objectives, by making various units with cheaper versions
- only disadvantage I see right now (except that it has to be for ToT to be fully efficient ): it would use 1 additional unit slot for every unit with a cheaper version!

I'm curious to know your opinion on that?

OT: Patine, if this isn't usable in your scen and only for future ones, sorry about the threadjacking!

[Patine]

Well, Cyrion, that is a novel idea, I admit, but unfortunately, my unit slots are all full. It may be good for other future scens though, certainly.

[Boco]

Can any valuable WoW's be placed in this region?

[Patine]

Maybe the Colossus. I can't remember what it's currently being used for. It may be possible. Thanks Boco!

[AGRICOLA]

I've started play after 'doctoring' a few things.

1. To all intents and purposes, when playing, the units shown below cannot be visually distinguished from each other except for the garishly colored details I've added.

Top row: Hayabusa on the left, Zero on the right

Middle row: Giyugen Hohei on left can't move, be moved or disbanded, Kempeitai in center can't fight its way out of a paper bag, Senpaku Hohei on the right can make amphib assaults.

Bottom row: Type 94 on left has decent D, Type 97 on right has an undecent D but a better A. They should not be used interchangeably.

2. Changed the spelling of Fusan and Keijo back to Pusan and Seoul.

3. Oh yes, disregard whatever I have said about the best strategy. This time, Tojo is going to draw to an inside straight for all the marbles. Banzai!

Should be interesting.