NEW - WWII Europa Scenario released!

[AGRICOLA]

Re: Russian rivers with subs. I believe you create the cities while landlocked then add the ocean squares with the cheat menu and the AI still thinks it is landlocked, is this correct?

You can use CivCity at any time to edit cities. CivCity has both 'can build coastal improvements' and 'can build ships' toggles.

[fairline]

Originally posted by Werd100
@AGRICOLA

4. The Escort fighter was supposed to go with Allied bombers on missions into Germany etc... It was an experiment that has not worked, mainly because there is no real potential in strategic bombing. I thought about making strategic bombing but to make it workable bombers would need very high attack values and that would make them too powerful as a tactical weapon!

Towards the end of the War when air superiority had been achieved, P-51's on bomber-escort missions were allowed to attack ground targets of opportunty on their way beck from the escort runs, so I'd give 'em their attack stats back.

[McMonkey]

Strategic Bombing

Does anyone have any ideas on how the strategic bombing campaign could be represented without a house rule forbiding bombers from attcaking non strategic targets?

The reason I say this is if I made bombers powerful enough to stand any sort of chance against Essen and other such targets I would have to give them very high att/def stats. This would mean that they could be used instead to batter through all defences and the allied armies would just follow up.

When I played the scenario I mainly used bombers to attack subs and isolated enemy units and did not bother throwing expensive bombers away on raids over occupied Europe.

It seems a shame to miss out this vital aspect of the war, especially with such good allied bomber graphics available!

If anyone could devise a way of making strategic bombing viable I would love to hear about it! This way I could justify using a slot for the Mosquito (with attacking stats!).

[AGRICOLA]

Originally posted by fairline
Towards the end of the War when air superiority had been achieved, P-51's on bomber-escort missions were allowed to attack ground targets of opportunty on their way beck from the escort runs, so I'd give 'em their attack stats back.

Good point. Also, the icon for the escort fighters should be changed from a Mosquito to a Mustang.

[Exile]

Strategic bombing?

I've thought of this idea for strategic bombing, and plan to try it out myself, but I'll posit it here . . . . and let someone else be the guinea pig . . . er . . . pioneer.

1.) Create a stationary Axis unit. Call it "Ball Bearing Plant" or "Aircraft Factory" or "Ploesti Oil Fields." Find the appropriate graphic. Experiment with def and HP to get it right.

2.) Place them. Some in cities, some not.

3.) When they are killed, an EVENT subtracts money from the axis.

4.) If the axis economy is iffy anyway . . . . hitting these units is worthwhile in a strategic sense. Doesn't kill combat units. Doesn't even impede their movement. But does damage the potential for rush-building/replacements-reinforcements.

If you place AA defense units with them, even more realistic.

[curtsibling]

Making these static 'factory' units have a very low defence too is good, as
they can be placed in cities and hit once all other defending units are beaten.

And additional factories can respawn in cities via random events.

[McMonkey]

@Exile

I like the idea man. Set in various strategic locations near the longest range of allied bombers and within the Axis airdefence network this could be a worthwhile objective for precious allied bombers and they would not need to be made any more powerful than they are already.

Some of the main objectives, such as Essen and Ploesti, could be regenerative through events either when destroyed or every x amout of turns. If they were built within a fortress the allies could only destroy one at a time.

The only danger of making them regenerative is that when the allies get close they will be able to bomb them with ease every time they pop up. I suppose that would aid in the final destruction of the axis though. And then on to the Russians!

One thing I would consider is an alternative is a reward for the allies. Although it would be more realistic to subtract money from the axis I am not sure how many people would bother unless, as you say, their economy is on its last legs. Maybe a cash reward for a sucessful mission would make players more keen to bomb targets. The problem with this method is its obvious inaccuracy, just an idea!

Anyway, nice thinking Batman!

[McMonkey]

@Curt

I think Exile is on to a winner here, though it will need to be tested thoroughly to get it working properly. I like the idea of having to beat the air defences before getting at the factory. I can foresee many bombers being lost and they ain't cheap! It will deffinately need to be experimented with to work out how to make it worthwhile!

[Exile]

The question that remains in my mind is;

What will the AI do, given such targets?

ignore them or go after them?

[McMonkey]

In WWII Europa the game is designed to be played as the Allies only so that would not be much of a problem.

I guess only extensive testing would show how the AI would react. I would hazard a guess and say that they would ignore the ones in well defended cities but may be coaxed into attacking the ones in the open.

Would making the 'Factory' non disbandable and very expensive make it a more attractive target for the AI and therefore more essential for the player to try and defend (as tan event will penalise the player if the 'Factory' is destroyed)?

[Exile]

The trick here might be to think in terms of the determination mathematics the AI uses to target enemy units with cruise missles. If it's not precisely the same, the similarities in AI purpose might shed some light on potential AI behavior.

There are Civ2 strategy folks and threads that can tell you about the details of these mathematics.

[Boco]

Exile's right, there's an unbelievable level of understanding in the strategy forum, as long as you ask in terms of vanilla Civ2.

Yes, making a Factory unit expensive as possible certainly helps make it a magnet. The AI is a sadist, so making it a very poor defender helps a lot, too. It wouldn't hurt to make it a carrier as well.

[curtsibling]

We do know that the AI will continue to bomb a city until it has destroyed all defending units.
And the bombed enemy AI will afterwards try to shore up the gap in defence if at all possible.

So, the Allied AI would 100% be sure to blast at any weak factory units,
and the battered Axis AI would try to rebuild the city defences.

As real to WW2 mentality as CIV2 is going to get.

[AGRICOLA]

To get players to use strategic bombing, the following conditions would have to be met:
1. A player HAS to know that there is a 'strategic' unit in a city.
2. The potential reward has to be large enough to warrant risking and losing expensive bombers. The enemy's treasury losing money is no reward at all.

I wouldn't even think of doing it if the following were true

Posted by Werd100
" . . . . . I like the idea of having to beat the air defences before getting at the factory. I can foresee many bombers being lost and they ain't cheap! . . . . ."

. . . . . . . unless there was a truly worthwhile payoff, larger than the cost of any shot down bombers.

Players are in the business of winning battles, not losing bombers.

P.S. There is still considerable controversy about the cost effectiveness of the Allied strategic bombing in WWII.

[Exile]

Hmmmmmm

Certainty in war comes very, very seldom. Point taken about the questionable effectiveness of strategic bombing in Europe during the war . . . .

Von Mellenthin, though, complained incessantly about lack of petrol, post 43. The experts I've heard all seem to agree that the bombing campaign was looking for an achilles heel--one type or even a single target that would achieve strategic payoffs. They agree that the oil supply was it.

The situation could be set up where several units look exactly alike, but have different payoffs.

Would a -500 gp tempt you to hit one if it was not in a city, Agri?

Eliminating possible reinforcements at a critical point might be worth it.