BITTERFROST III - DARKEST AEON...Playtest!

[curtsibling]

Just loaded up the save, and it is quite an empire you have there.

I am wondering why you have the Nedling city style though, did it load with that?

PS
I have a prophesy for you...Beware the East and North!

[Arthedain]

The city styles gets srewed up when one load the scen. Somebody needs to use civtweak.

[AGRICOLA]

Have you noticed if the light blue civ (brotherhood) is acting passively?

I've observed them around Lighthollow in the east and west of Stramash in the west. They persistently attacked Lighthollow when it was held by the Stavark and after Khaarov took it over. Their Kannon pose some threat but their Warriors A/D = 2/2 are no danger. I suspect that, if the approach march to Lighthollow was shorter and easier, they would swarm around the city.

I saw them in the west when the slaver expedition was operating in that area. Here they did a fair job in holding off the Undead monsters. They threw a lot of Kannon at the enemy and it took the Undead a long time to capture the city.

The Defense Miniters casualty list shows that they have lost an astonishing number of units. I would say that they are not passive but have very weak units.

I am wondering why you have the Nedling city style though, did it load with that?

Yes.

I have a prophesy for you...Beware the East and North!

Thanks for nothing.
More trouble I don't need.

Just loaded up the save, and it is quite an empire you have there.

Thank you for making it an interesting and major task to build it. I have certainly screwed up a few things but otherwise everything has been thoroughly micro-managed to try to finish within the 500 turn limit.

[curtsibling]

Originally posted by Arthedain
The city styles gets srewed up when one load the scen. Somebody needs to use civtweak.

Somebody did use civ-tweak!

But I will double check on that...

[curtsibling]

Cheers, AGRICOLA!

I think a little boost to the Nedlings may be in the works!

[AGRICOLA]

I am wondering why you have the Nedling city style though, did it load with that?

I didn't bother to check what my Khaarov cities should look like before answering. As far as I can tell, they are the ones labelled 'Khaarov' in the Cities file. . . Greek style buildings with red tile roofs. The screenshot shows the cities as I see them.

Damn, I didn't particularly want to show the barbaric and amateurish changes I always make to scen graphics in the interest of visibility. Please accept my abject apologies for the red roads, yellow farmland and the red mine entrances.

P.S. Robin Hood in the lower right hand corner is doing a vital job: systematically destroying all enemy-built fortresses. No point in providing hidey holes for any wandering hostiles.

[curtsibling]

Aha!

I have been viewing the save via the new city set...So I will solve that trouble with city-types before final release.

PS
Creating high-visibility versions of terrain features, to ease play is actually a good idea!

[Hans99]

*** Warning - Spoilers ***

Ok, at first i had some troubles to start ToT and get this scenario running.
I had to start cheat mode to turn off these stupid ToT Animations and facing Units, but for the rest of the game i had the house Rule, "no cheating" to get the most fun out of this scenario!

But in the end everyything worked fine. So i listened Einherjer and Dimmu Borgir Songs and started the Scenario.

I started the scen at Deity as the Skeer fanatics. Woah, looks great.


I started with not a so great hurry to build cities, but rather concentrate on trading and exploring, trying to be a nice guy to everyone. But Jawbone island is harsh land. My scouts got slaughtered by Harpies and Wicked Grove got lost to Werewolfes ( which it actually belonged to ). But i took it back from them by force.


-years 0-40

I slowly expanded around the skeerei mountains, into the nearby forest ( not very farmer friendly country, but i think it fits to the "character" of the Skeer ), colonized the little island west from Karskan and up the river. Conquered some "Foe" cities as i got north, till i finally conquer Red Sage Hall.

There i met the Stavark. We changed some tech's and then i blocked their expansion to the west at Red Sage Hall by positioning Defenders at vital points and block those annoying priestess from slipping through.


-years 40-60

This was the time of "BIG" exploration. Received my Deadnuns around this time ( I concentrated on a very militaristic research ). My sloops cruised around the island and conquered some "Foe" Fort's and were busy exploring the island. Also made contact with the Khaarov, the Shuuk, the Daargans and made contact with some Brigand colonies north of the daargan territory.

I still was mainly into trade, making big money with Trader Monks, so i could keep the science rate high. Ok, there were some small skirmishes with all other factions, even some more dangerous raids by "foes" and brigands ( One of them erased my colony on Karskan Island ), but in the end it was a very peaceful episode.

I also tried to form a big alliance sometime with the other factions, and also established embassys, but they were all pissed off, even after "BIG" donations from me, damn paleskins, should wear a mask...

I also did not focus on wonders so much, it was more interesting for me to build up an holy army. But the other civ's got ahead of me concerning "civil tech's" and the were not very willing to share them.

-years 60-70

Still exploring. Found the badlands northwest of Daargan country. Also conquered a small island northeast of Stavark country, which gave me the Smoke Iron Monopoly ( King Richards ), and a little hidden port called Black Keep.

I sent a death Nun into shuuk territory. She marched straight to the shuuk capital and ****d the Elders from their throne, so the poor lizards could be brought to the insight of the skeer. So the capital produced many Terror 'ehm... Dead Nuns, which wandered shuuk territory and did their best in missioning those poor little beasts ( Killed them at sight when i were in a bad mood, but did not conquer any other cities yet ). Strangely the Shuuk did not activate their alliance with the Khaarov?!

One Explorer found a medium sized Island nortwest of Skeer Area, which was home of many strange folks ( I thought it was the main island of evil because it homed all three "skull" factions ). So my Holy order seemed clear, to protect Jawbone island i must start a crusade against "Dagger Isle" ( No, not from Ultima ). So i sent my Dead Nuns and Witch Hunters still in Sloops on their mission, "Oh fear the Ori 'ehm... Skeer".

Also finished Kaneg Exchequer, which allowed me to build thos little, gold plated, walking tanks. So i posessed three Wonder's now ( Zamstahl/Wall, Monopoly/Crusade, and Kaneg/Eiffel ), but still no Heroes. But i saw Yurbi ( Stavark ), and Leopold ( Khaarov ) walking around the lands.

-years 70-80

Not much happend, conquered "Dagger Isle" altough the Brigand Kannons were giving me a hard time, but in the end i succeded. So i got two more wonders, a funny Crown of Honor/Bach ( Ha, i crown myself ), and the Brujeria Bay/Lighthouse. But still no Hero.

I also had to defeat some "Foe's" which were invading into Shuuk territory, 'cause only i am allowed to slaugh'... erhm persuade those little lizards.

Later the Daargans were visited by Goldfist, but where was he spotted? Not near Daargan cities but on a small piece of land south of the Daargan mountains which was only acessible by sea. So i sent my thrustworthy Nuns with some Templers to the "Private Island" of Goldfist. they knocked on his Door and "persuaded" him that it would be the best to join me in my Quest. Well, the Daargan's were not very happy about that, but who cares...

So i could steal Vorak Mercs from them, hehe...


-years 80-90

Now the Stavark started to annoy me, especially after a priestess stole "machinery" tech from me. So i started a Crusade against them, with my restless Army, which just returned from Dagger Isle, supported by the golden Hammer of Goldfist.
Till Winter 90 i conquered Starfort. The remaining Stavark territory was now only a small piece along the coastline, but their ships were giving me hell.
In the meantime we persuaded Yurbi to join the Skeer, hehe. Man, that were battles how they reminded me of the old days, when war was not just Bribing cities, or bombing them with howies and conquer an empire in one turn with help of the railorad, this was an all out strategic crusade!
My Templers and Crusaders mopped up any unwary Cannon, Settler, Nightwing... etc. ( Still very strong and fast, but cheap unit, especially in masses ). While my death Abbess and Kaneg's flanked the main march to the coast. My Terror/ Death Nun's and Voraks did major assault's on town's that were not build on rivers, while my siege guns blasted any stronger resistance away.
Dromons were bringing support from the mainland and fighting at the river bay of Stavark country.
Goldfist, Yurbi and my four Witchthunters did the rest. But it still was a hard fight, because the Stavark used their cannons in a very tanklike manner, so i had many losses.

The Daargan also declared war on me and conquered my outpost Fort Rageblade.

The Shuuk also started to annoy me, so i just destroyed their civ with my Terror Nun. All hail to the Skeer!

A second Expedition was started, going west from "Dagger Isle", but i didn't expect to find anything. I were surprised to find a long piece of icy land which stretched to the south. So i conquered a few "foe" cities and were nosy what else i might find.


-years 90-Winter 93

Conquered Stavark Nation with all their wonders, at least. I also made extensive use of persuaders to keep myself uptodate in tech race, but now i have to turn towards the south. The Daargan tried to expand into skeer territory, already declared war and signed a pact with the Khaarov to dimish my agression, doomed fools...

Conquered Maniac Harbour, small island southwest off Skeer Land.
The Assault on Fort Ironteeth costet me one Witchhunter, but next is Fort Broodhelm. I wonder what other secrets will lie in the midsea...?



So, now about what i suggest or what was strange.

1. I peeked at the events file, but some heroes did not appear, namely Detrament and Havik. I tested with an early save and cheated myself the wonders, and then they appeared, maybe a spell error in the events file, did not check yet?

2. I like the Map, it could even be bigger in my Opinion, but let's keep it with this one, it's already great.

3. The whole idea about the Brotherhood/Undead/Foes is great, but i think their units ( Except the Ancients, they rock hell, and the Brigand cannons ) are still some kind of wimpy, especially the Nedlings, and i've seen no Brigand Nedling Beast Rider or Kutter till now. May i suggest some extra advances for the Brigands at the start, or they fall behind too fast in the tech race.

I also suggest they all could be a little bit stronger, to posess more of a challenge. I want to have fear if i see a pack of werewolves coming down the road! I don't want to think, oh no, not again. They shall posess some threat, even for a Death Nun.

4. I'm also missing a little bit those extra special's when i conquer a "Foe" city. There could be something like:"As the Skeer conquer Rotted Hall they rescue some renegade pirates out of their cells which serve their new masters gratefully". Or Goldfist encaged in a golden Tower, deep into the mountains, very hard to reach, typical BF II Rescue mission ( Yeah, played through BF II too on Friday night as the undead ). or rescuing some Kaneg's mercs or or or...

5. I am also missing fort's of the "Foes" on "vital" and strong blocking positions. A Few Forts around Terror Tower ( Why does Terror Tower has no Citywalls? ) would be nice and give everyone a hard time trying to conquer it. ( Maybe i should try Barbarian Wrath next game, if it works with ToT )

6. Dead Nun's, Nightwing's etc... are far too powerful in my opinion and way too fast. I mean, how can a babe without a riding beast run over the highest hills and the thickest forest in no time while our Templers have problems all the way. I think the Voraks should be alpine with mov = 2.
The Dead Nun/Wings alpine with mov = 1 or fractal movement mov = 1.3 or non alpine mov = 3
and reduction of A/D value to 4/4, but that's just a suggestion.

7. I like the high cost of the Kaneg troopers and Voraks, makes 'em worth their firepower.

8. Forest has no production? I would give it at least one shield.

9. Grassland sucks, only one food, but i think that's good, ' cause Jawbone is a hard to farm land with scarce resources.

10. Mushrooms? Yeah, lets make mushroom Beer!!!

11. Farmland graphic seems a little bit to complicated and disturbs view. May i suggest Nemo's old Farmland graphic?

12. Missed funny message when Alchemologist exploded after one city was unhappy, like "An Alchemist was conducting a very explosive Experiment, when a stone from nearby rioters was tossed through his window and cracked a Glass with some special essence... ...BOOOOOM"

13. Mortar and Skorpion are too powerful in my opinion. The Stavark were swarming me with mortars in the end, but without sense. Before Mortar and Skorpion there was a well balanced mix of all units. So i suggest to enhance the Attack strenght of these units by one from Catapult 5, to thrower 6, Skorpion 7, and Cannon 8. Catapult can fire from behind walls and should get a Defense of 2. Cannon should get HP 1 and FP 3. Also all Siege Units should get mov = 1.
In the past they were waiting till the grunts surrounded castle and then they came up with the slow but wallcracking siege weapons.
But, just suggestions.

14. I am also missing the different unit strenghts like in BF II, when the Crusaders for example were Elite HP 2/FP 2 and the Bursars swarmed with HP 1/FP 1 units. The ships represent this in a good way ( My Dromons kick ass first round when they attack, but sink at counterattack, lol )

15. Readme and Unit Description!!!! We need it

16. I were not so happy about the idea from a Zexxa clone fighting along our side, but who know's, maybe it's fate. But again, just my opinion.

17. I met no Zombie walking along the land till now, altough that guy looks cool, maybe some swarms of them should wander Jawbone island? Maybe the Undead should receive their technology faster by events file. Suggesting 80 turn steps,but just suggesting...

18. Brigands were building no Nedling Warrior! Just Spear Nedlings. I would give the Warrior a better Attack value, but see -> no. 3.

19. More curvy sea-rivers, They are just a little bit too straight like channels imho.

20. Some passages into the northern Stavark mountains, but still no way to the other side, for example a savage valley in the mountains or something like that.

21. More pirate vessels at the beginning, this is a wild land, imho. I want excessive coastal raiding parties at the beginning!

22. 3 HP for the Behemoth! Altough i seldom met 'em i want to remeber a fight with em 'cause he's BIG and mean.

23. The Khaarov have a lot of falcons, lol, with that number of Falconers

24. Oh, and stealing foreign tech's ( Like Skeer steals Daargan Battle Lore ) should be forbidden, but does this works in ToT? Or is this on purpose?

25. The sounds are great, but i am missing the individuality a little bit ( Except the Harpy, niahahaha ).
I liked the Nedling sound in BF II ( Niahahaha, Boing; rofl ).
Also the Privateer sounds like a drunken ghost, something more seaman like would be better. The Heros also should have a more individual sound, when i first heard it i thought Goldfist trumpets with his Hammer (lol), imho.

26. Add some River Isles on the big river on the right side and a more fractal coastline. The river looks a little bit to artificial, imho.

27. Some more Secrets on Blackkeep Island, imho.

28. Some clue regarding Skag port and the quest for the Crown of Honour an also some clue regarding the Undead Quest, before building Spell of Unbinding ( peeked Events file )
I had no Idea about 'em. Just got a Crown of Honour after i conquered Skag port.


So far, and as i say, all just suggestions. Please, don't take it personal.


The game as a whole is still awesome and it costed me alot of sleep and time. I hope my suggestions will help you in your making of the Final Version. And i also must thank you, 'cause it didn't have this as much fun playing Civ II again since, well, since i bought it anno 199x? and played the WWii scen first time. I salute ya.


And excuse me for my bad language, and the many errors, but i'm just too sleepy now for spellchecking...


Greets and g'night to all.

attached .SAV file

[curtsibling]

Totally great feedback, Hans!
A really entertaining read too...You brought Skeer justice to the land!
I appreciate your advice here...And your musical choice while playing is damn fine also -

Originally posted by Hans99
1. I peeked at the events file, but some heroes did not appear, namely Detrament and Havik. I tested with an early save and cheated myself the wonders, and then they appeared, maybe a spell error in the events file, did not check yet?

I also suspect something is amiss.
I am going to give the events a full check through, just to make sure all heroes are functional.

Originally posted by Hans99
2. I like the Map, it could even be bigger in my Opinion, but let's keep it with this one, it's already great.

I reckoned I wanted to minimise the AI filling empty spaces with useless units doing nothing.
I think the size is quite good to support a mighty empire or two...

Originally posted by Hans99
3. The whole idea about the Brotherhood/Undead/Foes is great, but i think their units ( Except the Ancients, they rock hell, and the Brigand cannons ) are still some kind of wimpy, especially the Nedlings, and i've seen no Brigand Nedling Beast Rider or Kutter till now. May i suggest some extra advances for the Brigands at the start, or they fall behind too fast in the tech race.

I also suggest they all could be a little bit stronger, to posess more of a challenge. I want to have fear if i see a pack of werewolves coming down the road! I don't want to think, oh no, not again. They shall posess some threat, even for a Death Nun.

I agree!

I plan to boost the nedlings and pirates, making them more adventurous and perilous to others!
I will make the random baddies like werewolves and behemoths more scary...I might power up the ancients too!

Originally posted by Hans99
4. I'm also missing a little bit those extra special's when i conquer a "Foe" city. There could be something like:"As the Skeer conquer Rotted Hall they rescue some renegade pirates out of their cells which serve their new masters gratefully". Or Goldfist encaged in a golden Tower, deep into the mountains, very hard to reach, typical BF II Rescue mission ( Yeah, played through BF II too on Friday night as the undead ). or rescuing some Kaneg's mercs or or or...

I might add a few events that give prizes for grabbing areas, and I also plan to do something else with Red Sage hall,
as I have realised the cure it provides for the Skeer curse on Stavark can be messed up if someone else gets it first!

Originally posted by Hans99
5. I am also missing fort's of the "Foes" on "vital" and strong blocking positions. A Few Forts around Terror Tower ( Why does Terror Tower has no Citywalls? ) would be nice and give everyone a hard time trying to conquer it. ( Maybe i should try Barbarian Wrath next game, if it works with ToT )

I'll do a little survey of Terror Tower!

Originally posted by Hans99
6. Dead Nun's, Nightwing's etc... are far too powerful in my opinion and way too fast. I mean, how can a babe without a riding beast run over the highest hills and the thickest forest in no time while our Templers have problems all the way. I think the Voraks should be alpine with mov = 2.
The Dead Nun/Wings alpine with mov = 1 or fractal movement mov = 1.3 or non alpine mov = 3
and reduction of A/D value to 4/4, but that's just a suggestion.

Good advice!
If you have played through and think this would make things more satisfying, I will make the changes!

Originally posted by Hans99
7. I like the high cost of the Kaneg troopers and Voraks, makes 'em worth their firepower.

They are fun units...Especially the ninjettes.
Nothing scares the foe like leather-clad cat girls!

Originally posted by Hans99
8. Forest has no production? I would give it at least one shield.

Wood is useful...I'll add that one shield.

Originally posted by Hans99
9. Grassland sucks, only one food, but i think that's good, ' cause Jawbone is a hard to farm land with scarce resources.

It's a tough place, and I did not want cities to grow too fast.

Originally posted by Hans99
10. Mushrooms? Yeah, lets make mushroom Beer!!!

The Jawbone is not all bad to live in!

Originally posted by Hans99
11. Farmland graphic seems a little bit to complicated and disturbs view. May i suggest Nemo's old Farmland graphic?

I'll scale that back a little bit and use something more easy on the eyes.

Originally posted by Hans99
12. Missed funny message when Alchemologist exploded after one city was unhappy, like "An Alchemist was conducting a very explosive Experiment, when a stone from nearby rioters was tossed through his window and cracked a Glass with some special essence... ...BOOOOOM"

I had intended to add that message in...So I'll get that done!

Originally posted by Hans99
13. Mortar and Skorpion are too powerful in my opinion. The Stavark were swarming me with mortars in the end, but without sense. Before Mortar and Skorpion there was a well balanced mix of all units. So i suggest to enhance the Attack strenght of these units by one from Catapult 5, to thrower 6, Skorpion 7, and Cannon 8. Catapult can fire from behind walls and should get a Defense of 2. Cannon should get HP 1 and FP 3. Also all Siege Units should get mov = 1.
In the past they were waiting till the grunts surrounded castle and then they came up with the slow but wallcracking siege weapons. But, just suggestions.

Your combat data here is useful!
I'll take this advice into account, and make changes along these lines.

Originally posted by Hans99
14. I am also missing the different unit strenghts like in BF II, when the Crusaders for example were Elite HP 2/FP 2 and the Bursars swarmed with HP 1/FP 1 units. The ships represent this in a good way ( My Dromons kick ass first round when they attack, but sink at counterattack, lol )

I have been thinking of making some variations to the faction's units.
The thing I fear is that the enemies will act insanely and mess up the nicely balanced wars that I have coaxed the AI into.
Though, I can see if there is any room for variations on the various knights...

Originally posted by Hans99
15. Readme and Unit Description!!!! We need it

That's coming along...Don't worry!

Originally posted by Hans99
16. I were not so happy about the idea from a Zexxa clone fighting along our side, but who know's, maybe it's fate. But again, just my opinion.

Heh!
She is just a clone...And she is pretty insane.
It might be part of the real Zexxa's evil plans?

Originally posted by Hans99
17. I met no Zombie walking along the land till now, altough that guy looks cool, maybe some swarms of them should wander Jawbone island? Maybe the Undead should receive their technology faster by events file. Suggesting 80 turn steps,but just suggesting...

The area that the Skeer occupy is not very infested with undead...
But the Khaarov region has got a few legions!

Originally posted by Hans99
18. Brigands were building no Nedling Warrior! Just Spear Nedlings. I would give the Warrior a better Attack value, but see -> no. 3.

Indeed - I will boost the blueskins to make them more of a threat!
I wonder if it is anything to do with the light blue AI...I have
had trouble with that accursed civ lately in other scenarios...

Originally posted by Hans99
19. More curvy sea-rivers, They are just a little bit too straight like channels imho.

I'll see what I can do...But changing rivers, etc is a bit hard at this stage in development.

Originally posted by Hans99
20. Some passages into the northern Stavark mountains, but still no way to the other side, for example a savage valley in the mountains or something like that.

I was considering that option...I single route would be useful!

Originally posted by Hans99
21. More pirate vessels at the beginning, this is a wild land, imho. I want excessive coastal raiding parties at the beginning!

I also want more pirates!
I shall make an event to churn them out!

Originally posted by Hans99
22. 3 HP for the Behemoth! Altough i seldom met 'em i want to remeber a fight with em 'cause he's BIG and mean.

OK - I'll beef these monsters up some!

Originally posted by Hans99
23. The Khaarov have a lot of falcons, lol, with that number of Falconers

They mass-breed the little boogers, you know!

Originally posted by Hans99
24. Oh, and stealing foreign tech's ( Like Skeer steals Daargan Battle Lore ) should be forbidden, but does this works in ToT? Or is this on purpose?

I am going to crack down on the tech-stealing...The foreign tech thefts will be tightened up.

Originally posted by Hans99
25. The sounds are great, but i am missing the individuality a little bit ( Except the Harpy, niahahaha ).
I liked the Nedling sound in BF II ( Niahahaha, Boing; rofl ).
Also the Privateer sounds like a drunken ghost, something more seaman like would be better. The Heros also should have a more individual sound, when i first heard it i thought Goldfist trumpets with his Hammer (lol), imho.

Some of the SFX are just placeholders at the moment.

I plan to add some new ones.

Originally posted by Hans99
26. Add some River Isles on the big river on the right side and a more fractal coastline. The river looks a little bit to artificial, imho.

I'll take a look at that area and see what can be done.

Originally posted by Hans99
27. Some more Secrets on Blackkeep Island, imho.

We'll see what can be done...

Originally posted by Hans99
28. Some clue regarding Skag port and the quest for the Crown of Honour an also some clue regarding the Undead Quest, before building Spell of Unbinding ( peeked Events file )
I had no Idea about 'em. Just got a Crown of Honour after i conquered Skag port.

I am going to streamline the quests and make them more linear and easy to understand.

Especially the unbinding, red sage hall and the rewards. (crown/arch)

Originally posted by Hans99
So far, and as i say, all just suggestions. Please, don't take it personal.

Good suggestions...!!!
This advice helps me know what areas of the scenario to tighten up and fix!

Dude, such massive feedback is a gift...So accept my thanks to you and the others on the thread!

Originally posted by Hans99
The game as a whole is still awesome and it costed me alot of sleep and time. I hope my suggestions will help you in your making of the Final Version. And i also must thank you, 'cause it didn't have this as much fun playing Civ II again since, well, since i bought it anno 199x? and played the WWii scen first time. I salute ya.

That is great praise, and I am humbled, Hans!
I hope to make BFIII totally rock when the final changes are made.

Originally posted by Hans99
And excuse me for my bad language, and the many errors, but i'm just too sleepy now for spellchecking...

No problems in reading anything, you got your message across fine!
Again, my thanks to you for this giant playtest list and fix advice...!
I will get to work on the final version this week.

[AGRICOLA]

I've got a few preliminary comments to add after the post by Hans99, a download of his save and curtsibling's reply. My game is about a year (3 turns) ahead of his save.

Originally posted by Hans99
8. Forest has no production? I would give it at least one shield.

Wood is useful...I'll add that one shield.

Please don't. Forests can be converted to steppes to provide one resource. Steppes can be irrigated and then turned into farmland. Admittedly, this requires a lot of time, workers (I have 150 of the horny-handed sons of the soil toiling away) and patience. Time is one thing there is plenty of in this 500 turn scen. Don't make it too easy to build up production.

Originally posted by Hans99
1. I peeked at the events file, but some heroes did not appear, namely Detrament and Havik. I tested with an early save and cheated myself the wonders, and then they appeared, maybe a spell error in the events file, did not check yet?

I also suspect something is amiss.
I am going to give the events a full check through, just to make sure all heroes are functional.

Unfortunately or, more likely, fortunately, my game functioned perfectly in this regard. I wonder if you have noticed in Hans99's save that the Skeer were not the first to discover any of the techs needed to build the wonders that spawn heroes. Furthermore, the AI is awfully quick to build wonders once they have the requisite tech. As all 6 hero-spawning wonders are in either Daargan or formerly Stavrak cities, I wonder if the AI didn't build them first, thereby getting the heroes.

Originally posted by Hans99
6. Dead Nun's, Nightwing's etc... are far too powerful in my opinion and way too fast. I mean, how can a babe without a riding beast run over the highest hills and the thickest forest in no time while our Templers have problems all the way. I think the Voraks should be alpine with mov = 2.
The Dead Nun/Wings alpine with mov = 1 or fractal movement mov = 1.3 or non alpine mov = 3
and reduction of A/D value to 4/4, but that's just a suggestion.

Good advice!
If you have played through and think this would make things more satisfying, I will make the changes!

I consider the A/D=5/5 class of units (Falconer, Dead Nun, Nightwing, Skirmisher) to be useful for defence, recce and only limited attacks on weak enemy units in the open. Only at the start of the scen can they be freely used to attack cities garrisoned by weak enemy units.

These units are not for attacking walled cities. As defensive specialists, their x-country ability is critical for any kind of useful recce.....3 squares out and 3 squares back to the protection of the city walls. I've got a total of ~250 of them garrisoning cities, where they can defeat all but the strongest attackers; doing recce; and at least 3 aboard each ship doing exploration (when possible. 3 squares out and 3 squares back to ship to get some idea of what lies inland).

Mortars are the offensive units of choice once the opposition gets stronger or is sitting on high D terrain. Just don't let a stack of Mortars get caught in the open without at least a fortress and some kind of high D unit to protect them.

If you are concerned about both the A/D=5/5 units and Mortars being too strong, it may be better to increase the D strength of the Ironsmithy class of defensive units ((Trooper, Defender etc) from 2 to 3 or even 4. The AI builds hordes of these inexpensive units so he scen will become significantly tougher.

Originally posted by Hans99
19. More curvy sea-rivers, They are just a little bit too straight like channels imho.

I'll see what I can do...But changing rivers, etc is a bit hard at this stage in development.

Large rivers don't flow from ocean to ocean. Any geologist will tell you that these are rift valleys filled with salt water. Rift zones are caused by continental drift and they tend to be reasonably straight (e.g. Red Sea). The Jawbone continent is breaking up into the Jawbone Islands.

[curtsibling]

AGRICOLA...I will take your advice about the forests into consideration,
I guess we can put it down to the Jawbone being an inhospitable place...

Also the defence units can be upgraded slightly...

[Hans99]

@ AGRICOLA

Originally posted by Curtsibling
Wood is useful...I'll add that one shield.

Please don't. Forests can be converted to steppes to provide one resource. Steppes can be irrigated and then turned into farmland. Admittedly, this requires a lot of time, workers (I have 150 of the horny-handed sons of the soil toiling away) and patience. Time is one thing there is plenty of in this 500 turn scen. Don't make it too easy to build up production.

hmmmmmm, yeah, that's right, but my thinking was that if you can road and irrigate steppes with Food 1/Shield 1 you get the Bonus while with Forest with Food 1/Shield 1 you have to stay with the one shield and get no bonus for roads. So in the end you are still cutting down all of the forest to get to the steppes, you just receive one more shield in some circumstances, but i could also live without the shield.

It just seemed strange to me that wood seems ( nearly, if you find a hidden special wood ) absolutely useless in aspect of production.

Originally posted by Curtsibling
I also suspect something is amiss.
I am going to give the events a full check through, just to make sure all heroes are functional.

Unfortunately or, more likely, fortunately, my game functioned perfectly in this regard. I wonder if you have noticed in Hans99's save that the Skeer were not the first to discover any of the techs needed to build the wonders that spawn heroes. Furthermore, the AI is awfully quick to build wonders once they have the requisite tech. As all 6 hero-spawning wonders are in either Daargan or formerly Stavrak cities, I wonder if the AI didn't build them first, thereby getting the heroes.

Yeah, that's right,but as i said, i did not focus on wonderrushing or great civilized wonder techs, and did not build any wonder bringing me a Hero, i just "borrowed" them from the other Civ's.

But there were "NO MESSAGES"/Events when the Stavark completed e.g. the Grand Festival/King's Patronage/Pool of Keening. This was strange as i got messages, when the Market( Daargan, Goldfist ) and the Kodex ( Stavark, Yurbi ) were built.

I also used cheatmode now to search for the lost Heros but they are "nowhere", no one posseses 'em.

But you are right, th AI really is a big wonderrusher in this scen, and i noticed that there was a big competition to finish exact these wonders where the Heros are missing, e.g. Grand Festival was the grand race in the Beginning between Stavark, Daargan and Khaarov, while i just passed.
Maybe it's a ToT internal problem? but i will run another game as Stavark and Daargan to see if the problem occurs again or if this only happens with the Stavark.

I consider the A/D=5/5 class of units (Falconer, Dead Nun, Nightwing, Skirmisher) to be useful for defence, recce and only limited attacks on weak enemy units in the open. Only at the start of the scen can they be freely used to attack cities garrisoned by weak enemy units.

These units are not for attacking walled cities. As defensive specialists, their x-country ability is critical for any kind of useful recce.....3 squares out and 3 squares back to the protection of the city walls. I've got a total of ~250 of them garrisoning cities, where they can defeat all but the strongest attackers; doing recce; and at least 3 aboard each ship doing exploration (when possible. 3 squares out and 3 squares back to ship to get some idea of what lies inland).

Mortars are the offensive units of choice once the opposition gets stronger or is sitting on high D terrain. Just don't let a stack of Mortars get caught in the open without at least a fortress and some kind of high D unit to protect them.

If you are concerned about both the A/D=5/5 units and Mortars being too strong, it may be better to increase the D strength of the Ironsmithy class of defensive units ((Trooper, Defender etc) from 2 to 3 or even 4. The AI builds hordes of these inexpensive units so he scen will become significantly tougher.

Wow, everyone has different tactics. I used the Dead Nuns very often as main assault force,swarming all over the area, while the Abbess is my main Defender Unit. She's cheap, and for the worst case one or two Defenders do Backup, and she's only Defence 2*, but HP also 2. But she never had Problems against Werewolves, Behemoths or Doomknights ( But behind City walls! )

Concerning Mortars i agree when they are out in the open they are nearly dead meat, that's ok but i still disliked the fact that they were swarming me in the end with Cannon's as the AI tends to build the Unit with the highest Attack value.
But i laso agree that they are good for bunkerbusting in their present configuration.

The idea about increasing the Defence strenght of the Grunts also is interesting. I think i use said changes to the rules.txt in my next game as Stavark and report my experience here.

Large rivers don't flow from ocean to ocean. Any geologist will tell you that these are rift valleys filled with salt water. Rift zones are caused by continental drift and they tend to be reasonably straight (e.g. Red Sea). The Jawbone continent is breaking up into the Jawbone Islands.

Hmmmmm, the two "BIG" rivers are rifts, this is obvius, but the small, one Field large rivers/rifts i thought really were rivers, because there is a river which springs north of stavark territory and flows to Red Sage hall. It's depending what Curt intended it to be. If it are rifts i humbly apologize


So long...

[AGRICOLA]

Cross post!!

@curtsibling

I will take your advice about the forests into consideration,
I guess we can put it down to the Jawbone being an inhospitable place...

Absolutely correct as usual.

Encyclopaedia Jawbonica:
Jawbone forests are very dense because the native trees are skinny and densely branched......much like 3m tall Christmas trees on Terra. Their wood is so full of knots that it is unsuitable for lumber and so soft that it gives off little heat when burned.


@Hans99

I also used cheatmode now to search for the lost Heros but they are "nowhere", no one posseses 'em.

I confess that I did a similar search when I first downloaded your save and, like you, couldn't find 3 of the heroes. The only explanation that I can think of is that the Stavrak did build them and the Skeer never actually killed them. They simply disappeared when the Skeer destroyed the Stavrak civ. Had they been defeated in combat, they would now belong to the Skeer.



I found it very interesting and elightening to be able to compare equivalent saves from your and my games. Strategies, building priorities, personal preferences, civ locations etc. do certainly make for very different games.

[Hans99]

@ Agricola

It's Stavark, not Stavrak

Ok, i agree with the trees, , make Jawbone island a Hostile place...

About the Heros: I uploaded an earlier .sav and also searched for them, they were still missing. The most strange thing was that no Event Text appeared, but maybe, just maybe it was because i also had some tasks running besides ToT, who knows...

Just did a quickrun with the stavark and cheated me all technologies and wonders, and had no problems now.




@ Curt

You're the god of Jawbone Island, do whatever you please to do

I can't wait to play the update...



Greets

[typhoon]

Here's a thought.

The heroes were killed by the Ancient civ, thus removing them from circulation. It has happened to me several times.