New Dictator WW2 scenario...When should it start?

[Dr Kellogg]

Originally posted by Sarsstock
I fully trust Curt's judgment on his most respected scenario topic .

I agree! Whenever this scenario begins, whatever map he uses und whichever civs are in!

[BillyBud]

Originally posted by Dr Kellogg
It is an interesting idea to include a Canadian civ. Yet, I doubt it will be an interesting civ to play.

I don't want to conceal Canada's contribution to the Allied victory but what would be the task beside sending lots of caravan units to the UK when playing Canada in a more or less historical accurate scenario?

heheh

From what I understand (hopefully), this scenario will be playable as the Axis civ only.

From your statements about Canada's contribution to WW2, may I suggest you read a good history book on the subject.

[fairline]

Originally posted by BillyBud


heheh

Right.

But this was strictly on the basis of simplifying command. No. 6 Group was strictly Canadian, within the British Command structure.

I don't understand your point. You said Canada had a separate Bomber Command. They didn't. They had a Group within Bomber Command. As with all other Groups , they took their direction from Arthur Harris, head of RAF Bomber Command.

Similarly 1st Canadian Army, which itself had British Corps under command, was an integral part of British 21st Army Group.

I'm not trying to diminish the contribution made by Canada during WW2; it was, as you said, massive. The point I am making is that Canada did not fight as a separate nation during WW2. All of it's forces fought under the British Command structure. All of it's divisions, Corps, squadrons and Groups were organised exactly as their British counterparts. In Civ2 terms, this does not make them a separate civ, unless the scenario scale is such that the player controls formations smaller than an Army Group. 6 Group took its targets from Bomber command, just as 1st Canadian Army fought in N. Europe alongside 2nd British Army, under Montgomery's overall command.

In fact, there's a strong argument for combining the US, British, Dutch, Belgian, Polish, Canadian and Free French forces as a single W. Allies civ to ensure it acts with a modicum of sense if controlled by the AI.

[BillyBud]

Originally posted by fairline




I don't understand your point. You said Canada had a separate Bomber Command. They didn't. They had a Group within Bomber Command. As with all other Groups , they took their direction from Arthur Harris, head of RAF Bomber Command.

I agreed with you about the bomber command - this is what happens when I type something before eating breakfast - heheh

Similarly 1st Canadian Army, which itself had British Corps under command, was an integral part of British 21st Army Group.

I'm not trying to diminish the contribution made by Canada during WW2; it was, as you said, massive. The point I am making is that Canada did not fight as a separate nation during WW2. All of it's forces fought under the British Command structure. All of it's divisions, Corps, squadrons and Groups were organised exactly as their British counterparts. In Civ2 terms, this does not make them a separate civ, unless the scenario scale is such that the player controls formations smaller than an Army Group. 6 Group took its targets from Bomber command, just as 1st Canadian Army fought in N. Europe alongside 2nd British Army, under Montgomery's overall command.

Yes, and Monty took his orders from Ike, the US Allied Supreme leader.

But I understand what you're saying - heheh

I'm not trying to be difficult (I hope) - heheh...

In fact, there's a strong argument for combining the US, British, Dutch, Belgian, Polish, Canadian and Free French forces as a single W. Allies civ to ensure it acts with a modicum of sense if controlled by the AI.

If this scenario is playable by the Axis player only (which I hope it is), then simplifying the Allied nations would be a good idea.

Perhaps I am looking at all of this from a military/history/wargame perspective.

If looked at from a civ2 perspective (I understand there are limitations to the game engine and scenario design), then perhaps finding a simplified way to achieve certain things would be a good idea...

[BillyBud]

Originally posted by curtsibling
And you suggest that fairline needs to read a good history book?

He has several dozen I would wager. And knows them inside and out.

Advice: Quit while you are losing, Billy.

I did not say Fairline should read a good history book.

Based on what he had written about Canada, I suggested that Dr Kellogg read a good history book on Canada's contribution.

As for losing - I didn't know this was some sort of a contest. All of the info about Canada I have presented is essentially correct.

[curtsibling]

Based on general opinion, civ-engine issues and historical aspects...While I would ideally like to give Canada a seperate civ,
the mayhem that can be caused by the CIV game with many AIs in the same land is infamous. So in that mind, I would hand the
Canadian territories over to a British Allies civ, and keep the USA as an entity too. It is tempting to create a monolithic
'Allies' civ, but the main problem here is how to package them, and to come up with a suitable icon/flag, etc.

I think making all ground units as 'non-ZOC'attackers, and keeping units by for garrisons, would help remove traffic jams
in the US continent and around. I might also employ events to keep units moving towards each other every turn, so the AI
does not engage in pointless wanderings around the map. I am currently putting together a nice unit and tech file, and might
need some new units in the future...I plan to include some 'war-winner' weapons for the German axis, including the more lucid
and possible jets like the G0-229 and He-162....Also the super U-boats and a V-weapon. All to be built in small numbers...

A few axis uber-units against a tide of conventional bombers and troops will make for some nice drama!

I wonder if you would be game for perhaps about four new WW2 units, fairline...At some point in the future?
No rush, but I may ask you to create a new Mossie for the Brit civ! (I know this was a pain before...)

Let me know if you have the time.

[curtsibling]

Originally posted by BillyBud


I did not say Fairline should read a good history book.

Based on what he had written about Canada, I suggested that Dr Kellogg read a good history book on Canada's contribution.

Yikes!

Dude, I am sorry...I totally misread that post.

*Lowers head, ready for slapping with tuna*

[BillyBud]

Originally posted by curtsibling


Yikes!

Dude, I am sorry...I totally misread that post.

*Lowers head, ready for slapping with tuna*

heheh

No problemo....

I have been lurking on this forum for a long time. When this topic came up, it kinda got me excited to see this scenario be made.

I added in my own two cents worth. But it was all done to help - not to hinder....

And my apologies to anyone if I said anything that might be considered to be rude or outta line...

Again, I only wanted to contribute to this scenario....

[curtsibling]

Originally posted by BillyBud



heheh

No problemo....

I have been lurking on this forum for a long time. When this topic came up, it kinda got me excited to see this scenario be made.

I added in my own two cents worth. But it was all done to help - not to hinder....

And my apologies to anyone if I said anything that might be considered to be rude or outta line...

Again, I only wanted to contribute to this scenario....

Billy - No sweat!

I think these debates are good to hammer out the basis of a scenario!

Even when people disagree, it makes for interesting reading...
[size](as long as I can actually read it without mistaking posters!)[/size]

If I was creating a Euro WW2 epic, I would be moving towards a Finn civ, and Brit Allies...

[fairline]

Originally posted by BillyBud


As for losing - I didn't know this was some sort of a contest. All of the info about Canada I have presented is essentially correct.

This is just a friendly debate - nobody is taking offense I hope.

[Dr Kellogg]

Originally posted by BillyBud
From your statements about Canada's contribution to WW2, may I suggest you read a good history book on the subject.

My main subject is early modern history but my knowledge about WW2 are sufficient. I suppose so.
But take a look at your post about Canada's contribution to WW2 and check which of these points can actually be converted in a useful way.

Why should the Canadian civ build thousands of tanks if these units are not meant to be used by them on the European battlefields? Not to mention that any Canadian ground unit in Europe would simply block terrain tiles for other Allied civs...
How would you emulate that largest air pilot training program in history or that Canada had its own generals within the British command structure?
There were millions of soldiers fighting in Europe and you have a unit limit of 255 to represent them all. It wouldn't be much fun for the Canadian civ to fight with only a handful of units in Europe. One the other hand, it wouldn't be plausible to see lots of Canadians liberating Europe.

Naval battles are fine but it is hard to simulate that in Civ2 even if you focus solely on that and ignore the action that took place on the mainland like Case did in his Cruel Sea scenario.

This post is not about downplaying Canadas WW2 veterans or something. Civ2 is a 10yrs old computer game with very limited possibilities and this are my two cents.

[Sarsstock]

With the size of Canada's contribution to the war effort being essentially agreed upon here, the only point of yours I would disagree with Doctor is that Civ II has very limited possibilities.

I don't think the legions of educated fools such as us would be spending our time devoted to this game if her possibilities were so limited. Instead, I believe we spend our time on Civ II because ten years ago it found an excellent ballance between user friendliness, and easy to modify game files. Ten years later I haven't seen many games that have stood the test of time like Civ II has.

And thats my friend two cents on the matter.

[Dr Kellogg]

Ok, let me rephrase that.
Civ2 has been designed to simulate history on a large scale leaving out excessive and fussy micromanagement in favour of ballance, user friendliness and the amazing possibilities to create thousands of different scenarios.
Therefore, the possibilities to simulate more complex connexions between military, politics and private industry as well as multi- and international cooperation in the range of politics and military are limited which is no insurmountable obstacle though.

[Arthedain]

Originally posted by jim panse


Well, I have this one lying around rather useless on my HD ... it is derived from Henrik Lohmander's excellent De historibus Europae scenario.

Maybe you want to take a look at it?

Man I've wanted that map ever since I saw FMK using it for his ww2 scen that never got finished. Thanks for sharing

Edit: Where can I get Histrobus Europae? I tried spanish civSite but it was corrupted, and couln't find it elsewhere.

[Harry Tuttle]

Curt, if you want to use my Horten Ho 229 from AEII be my guest. The Luftwaffe had created a number of prototypes since 1943 onwards.