New Dictator WW2 scenario...When should it start?

[fairline]

Why would you have Canada as a separate civ? They (and Australians, N Zealanders, SA, Indians etc) were entirely integrated with the British command structure. The Dominion governments had the final say over withdrawing troops from Europe / N. Africa, as happened with many of the Aussie divisions after Pearl Harbor, but once commited they fought under overall British Command at Army (or in the Canadians case) Army Group level.

[jim panse]

Curt, be my guest

I am honoured

[Eivind IV]

Yeah, have Finland instead of Canada.

[BillyBud]

Hmmm...

Most wargames I have seen/played have always had Canada as a separate nation.

From what I have read about the matter, Canada's contribution to WW2 was massive:

1) Canada was responsible for almost 50% of all convoy duties in WW2 under the Royal Canadian Navy - not the British Navy.

2) Canada had the largest Air Pilot Training program in history in WW2.

3) Canada built 16,000 bombers and fighters.

4) Canada built 800,000 military vehicles, second ONLY to the United States, and more than Germany, Italy and Japan COMBINED.

5) Although Canadian divisions and Armies fought within the British command structure, it had its own generals, and this was often the case with other countries as well. For example, in Italy, the US 5th Army had several British divisions within its jurisdiction.

6) Canada was the ONLY other country, besides the British and Americans, to have its own invasion beach on D-Day (Juno Beach). Canada, suffered more casualties on D-Day (except the Americans on Omaha), and pushed inland further than both the British and Americans on D-Day taking all of its objectives.

7) On D-Day, Canada contibuted several dozen warships to support the landings, as well as several fighter/bomber squadrons to sweep the skies and countryside....

8) Canada had 75,000 soldiers fighting in Italy, and in France, the Canadian 1st Army, after D-Day had its own objectives, fighting to liberate the coastal cities, the Scheldt as well as Holland (where it suffered 25,000 casualties).

9) Canada had its own bomber command as part of the Allied strategic bombing effort.

10) Canada ended WW2 with the THIRD largest navy in the world (including 5 heavy cruisers and 2 aircraft carriers) as well as the FOURTH largest airforce in the world.

[jim panse]

Go Canada!

Jokes aside, I am still promoting the following general outline (if you would do another global WW2 scen, of course):

AXIS POWERS: Greater German Reich & its allies resp. Italy; Japan.

ALLIED POWERS: European Theatre* (i.e. all Allied war efforts concerning Hitler's maniacs), Pacific Theatre** (...), the USSR and China.

* The European Theatre civ would include all British/Free French/US-occupied territories in Europe and the Middle East and Africa, maybe some part of India as well and most of the Eastern US and Canadian states/provinces, maybe up to the Mississippi.

** The Pacific Theatre civ would possess the Western coastlines of the US and Canada, Hawaii, Alaska as well as Australia, New Zealand, India, Ceylon and all the parts of Oceania yet under Allied command (i.e. Henderson Field, Guadalcanal).

So you would have all the major powers incorporated - and a possible dispute between the "Europe-firsters" and the "Avenge-Pearl-Harbor" factions within the (Western) Allied chiefs.

[Sarsstock]

I fully agree with Curt and Bill's idea of including Canada as a civ in the european theatre. And I have to say I agree more so after reading Bill's testimonial post on Canadian involvement, very well said indeed my friend .

[jim panse]

Then the search for a large Euro map is on!

Well, I have this one lying around rather useless on my HD ... it is derived from Henrik Lohmander's excellent De historibus Europae scenario.

Maybe you want to take a look at it?

[fairline]

You're missing the point - Canada's contribution was massive BUT it didn't fight as a separate entity. Canadian troops in both Italy and NWE were fully integrated into the British command structure. All Empire/Commonwealth troops fought under either British Army Group or Army command; they didn't wander around doing their own thing as an allied civ2 civ would.

A separate aillied civ in civ2 is an annoying hindrance which does anything other than what you want it to - often blocking routes from your cities etc.

[fairline]

Originally posted by Eivind IV
Yeah, have Finland instead of Canada.

/ Completely OT /

I've sent you Desert War units Eivind - did you get them?

[fairline]

Originally posted by BillyBud
Hmmm...
9) Canada had its own bomber command as part of the Allied strategic bombing effort.

Most of you points are correct Billy, apart from this one: No. 6 Group RCAF fought as part of Bomber Command (ie British RAF Bomber Command).

[Dr Kellogg]

It is an interesting idea to include a Canadian civ. Yet, I doubt it will be an interesting civ to play.

I don't want to conceal Canada's contribution to the Allied victory but what would be the task beside sending lots of caravan units to the UK when playing Canada in a more or less historical accurate scenario?

[curtsibling]

@Jim Panse:
Cheers for the map...Awesome stuff!

If Canada is not being used as a seperate civ, then I would
have to use Finland. There is no other nation that can be
employed. Also I am worried that the UK becomes too
much of a powerhouse...But then, we do want a challenge!

I plan to have neutral countries covered with impassable
terrain for ground troops, but where planes can land.
This way I could free up a civ and cities to use, rather than
the useless 'neutral civ'...Which does nothing.

[BillyBud]

Originally posted by fairline
You're missing the point - Canada's contribution was massive BUT it didn't fight as a separate entity. Canadian troops in both Italy and NWE were fully integrated into the British command structure. All Empire/Commonwealth troops fought under either British Army Group or Army command; they didn't wander around doing their own thing as an allied civ2 civ would.

All Allied armies were given instructions and orders in military campaigns in WW2. Ike, as Supreme Allied Commander, gave orders as to what objectives would be taken to American AND British forces. NO Allied nation/army was allowed to just do its own thing.

On July 23, 1944 the Headquarters of the First Canadian Army became operational (this included several Canadian infantry divisons and the 4th Canadian armored division), under the command of Canadian General Crerar. Interestingly, it also included a Polish division and a British corps, under Canadian command.

While the First Canadian Army was within the British Command structure, it nonetheless operated as a separate entity, with its own generals, and was responsible for liberating all coastal cities, the Scheldt, Holland, eventually pushing into the Rhineland. Canada did this while the British and American armies each had their own separate objectives.

A separate aillied civ in civ2 is an annoying hindrance which does anything other than what you want it to - often blocking routes from your cities etc.

I can understand this. I don't know anything about Civ2 scenario design.

However, to not include Canada is simply a BIG mistake.

Couldn't the "Commonwealth Civ" include Canadian units that are controlled by the one civ?

[Sarsstock]

As large as the Canadian contribution to the war effort was, as outlined by Bill earlier, my main reason for the inclusion of the canadian civ was mostly to prevent Britain from becoming too massive a powerhouse with industrial centers and bases on almost every corner of the map.

I realize at the same time that to some this represents a non-historical break between the Commonwealth and the Dominion. In my limited experience with scenario making, sadly with a non perfect engine like that of ToT you have to make trade offs like that to best mimic historical world powers.

I fully trust Curt's judgment on his most respected scenario topic .

[BillyBud]

Originally posted by fairline


Most of you points are correct Billy, apart from this one: No. 6 Group RCAF fought as part of Bomber Command (ie British RAF Bomber Command).

heheh

Right.

But this was strictly on the basis of simplifying command. No. 6 Group was strictly Canadian, within the British Command structure.

On 1st January 1943. No. 6 Group, an RCAF formation, was formed within Bomber Command. Canadian airmen fought in the Battle of Britain, North Africa, Italy and the Normandy invasion. More than 230,000 Canadians served in the RCAF, and about 17,000 died, the great majority while serving with Bomber Command.

At the peak of its strength, 6 Group consisted of fourteen squadrons. Fifteen squadrons would eventually serve with the group - almost every RCAF heavy bomber squadron.

Significant operations involving 6 Group included raids on U-boat bases in Lorient and Saint-Nazaire, France and night bombing raids on industrial complexes and urban centres in Germany.

During its 28 months on operations with Bomber Command, No. 6 Group flew 271,981 hours on 40,822 sorties and dropped 126,122 tons of bombs and mines. Its losses totalled 814 crews missing.