New Dictator WW2 scenario...When should it start?

[curtsibling]

Originally posted by Exile
Find me the right map, Curt, and I'll do it myself.

However, I'm fighting with the events of a new one that is just about complete. I'd like to finish this one first.

Then the search for a large Euro map is on!

I can imagine the feel of Age of Crusades or 1870, but with a WW2 feel...

...That would be CIV2 solid gold!

I think Jim Panse's 'Blood/Steel' Europe and USA map would be perfect!

Would he allow it to be used for Exile's WW2 masterpiece?



PS
Awesome to see you are still in the scenario throne, Exile!

[techumseh]

It's all public domain.

[BillyBud]

Here are a few more ideas:

1) I agree that this scenario should not be a dogpile on Germany. I think, even though all of the forces arrayed against the Axis will be awesome, I wonder if there should be the possibility of Germany achieving some sort of "progress" or survivability:

* perhaps allow Germany to develop the "A" bomb way down on the tech tree; or have a % chance of Germany "discovering" atomic power sometime in 1945...

* if the player plays exceptionally well, then allow for the possibility (if even remote) for the player to achieve better results than Germany did historically. For example, if the player chose to go on the defensive in Russia and instead allotted a sizable portion of production to go to North Africa, then it might be possible for the player to knock Britain out of Egypt and secure valuable oil resources in the Middle East.

Even more, it could allow the player to open up another front for Russia in attacking the Caucasus via Persia. If this happens (if Germany enters Persia), then there could be a % chance that Turkey will join the Axis powers.

By attacking Russia's underbelly, Germany would also be trying to gain the valuable oil fields in Maikop, Baku, etc...


2) It might be interesting to have Allied invasions starting sometime in mid-to late-1943. However, to make it interesting, and to create replayability and to foster tension in the player, these landings should be random and they should occur at ANY place in Italy, North Africa or France. In other words, the invasions could come at any time in 1943 AND they could occur at any reasonable place. Thus, the Axis player must always be on his guard....

3) I would suggest using a big map, especially have large areas in North Africa and huge areas in Russia....

4) It should be extremely difficult to knock Russia out of the war (in other words the capture of any Russian cities will NOT knock Russia out of the war). Using a map with vast land masses in Russia, perhaps the best the German player can do is to hold back the bear, use limited offensives, and try to obtain breathing space until he can create more military forces or obtain wonder weapons...

These are just some thoughts...

[curtsibling]

Great ideas, Bill!
Only one objection from me...

I would not be up for Germany developing the atom-bomb, as they were historically nowhere near getting it.

Perhaps developing a next generation of jets (Go-229/Me-263/etc) and submarines (Electroboat) would stave off defeat.

I like the idea of Germany fighting against an ever-growing enemy, though...That is very exciting!

[Palaiologos]

I for one would certainly prefer a later starting date. After Kursk.
Maybe a few months before D-Day.
There is no "hopelessnes" feeling in Nov 1942.

[Cifer Almasy]

Do you know the novel "Fatherland" (Vaterland)? There the author describes an alternate end of war, in which The 3rd Reich somehow succeeds developing a V3. With that wonderweapon they enlighten the night skyline of Manhattan as warning. after that the USA try peace negotiations.

for the scenario i imagine one specific tech tree branch you would have to decide following to get this chance.

[BillyBud]

Originally posted by curtsibling
Great ideas, Bill!
Only one objection from me...

I would not be up for Germany developing the atom-bomb, as they were historically nowhere near getting it.

Perhaps developing a next generation of jets (Go-229/Me-263/etc) and submarines (Electroboat) would stave off defeat.

I like the idea of Germany fighting against an ever-growing enemy, though...That is very exciting!

I had tossed that "A" bomb idea around in my mind for a while. Not sure about it. I do agree with you mostly.

Just thinking about some way to give the German player some chance. Nothing destroys a player's joy in playing a scenario then knowing that no matter what he does, he is doomed in the game....

However, I do like your wonder weapon ideas.... perhaps the key to a player's hopes lies along this path (as well as offensives in North Africa).

I think it might be worthwhile to search the web and see if we can locate all the wonder weapons that Germany was planning on developing.

In addition to the V1 and V2, I do recall a V3 was in the works as well as a Sanger Amerika Bomber was on the drawing boards....

Might be an avenue to see these wonder weapons and maybe see some new graphical units based on them

[BillyBud]

Originally posted by Palaiologos
I for one would certainly prefer a later starting date. After Kursk.
Maybe a few months before D-Day.
There is no "hopelessnes" feeling in Nov 1942.

My personal feeling is that late 1942 represents the historical limits of how far the Axis expanded in conquest. This date would give the player some breathing room to develop strategies for the Allied Behemoth that is sure to come....

Later than this (after Kursk or before D-Day) might be too late in the war, since very little breathing room and research can be done. These late starting dates might just result in a doomed dogpile on the Axis player. Personally, I see no fun in this and very little replayability....

Just my thoughts....

[curtsibling]

I agree...I think even starting the scenario in the midst of Stalingrad could be fun...

But making the battle start at the outmost reaches of the axis empire is great.

It's is like the fall of the Romans, only in this case, you want them to fall!

[Dr Kellogg]

Great to see the Dictator series still developing
Some thoughts...

The point of time you chose will result in a differnt kind of scenario.

Beginning in the 1930s will result rather in an empire building scenario with many possible outcomes than a WW2 scenario.

An early date gives the player freedom regarding the development of new weapons and armour, as well as strategy and tactics. A later date poses a challenge as the player has to handle a specified situation with given equipment and limited possibilities to develop new technologies.

An absolute historical accurate scenario cannot begin before Dec 41 with all factions set.
Even if the scenario begins in Sep 39, the sequence of events in the pacific theatre (27 tunrs until Dec 41!) will differ dramatically from real history.

The time frame changes inevitably if you want to centre on a specific civ.
The Battle of Britain is a thrilling date for the British and Commonwealth civ to start. 1937 or 1941 are interesting dates for the Japanese to start. Any date from 1936 to 1945 is imaginable for the Germans to start. Playing the US civ any date before 1941 is probably boring.

@atomic bomb

There was no corporate effort in Germany to develop an atomic bomb. Instead of that, single scientists and their teams competed against each other. Furthermore, there was a lack of resources and Germany was permanently heavily bombed. Finally, the Nazis did not prioritise any of these projects.
The only realistic product of this research would be some kind of dirty bomb which can hardly be represented with a 99 attack factor in Civ2.

If the scenario starts in the 1930s and the player keeps strict at the development and discards jet fighters and heavy tanks in favour of it I could imagine a German atomic bomb though.

However, there were many conventional Wunderwaffen which were not that conventional...
Some of them were more or less close to became operational and some acutally saw action in the last days of the Reich.

Typ XXI + Typ XXIII electrical engined U-boats
Ba 349 'Natter' rocket-powered interceptor aircraft
He 162 'Volksjäger' jet engined fighter
Ar 234 'Blitz' jet powered bomber
Ho 229 (Go 229) flying wing fighter bomber
Ju 287 multi-engined heavy jet bomber
Hs 132 jet engined dive bomber
Hs 117 'Schmetterling' surface to air missile
Fi 103 R piloted version of the V1 Flying Bomb.
X 7 'Rottkäpchen' surface to surface missile

[curtsibling]

Good post!

I reckon industrial priority should be chosen by the player as the German civ, and also
being able to choose a variety of 'war-winning' weapons could be a good game dimension.

The Me-262, Go229, Me-264, He-162, Ar-234, Elektroboot and V-weapons are the most likely candidates for keeping
the Allies on parity, but even then, these should be hard to build and precious units that are even 'events made'...

There should be drama and 'skin-of-teeth' warfare.

Starting at the launch of 'Operation Blue' in June 1942 will likely be my choice for a new WW2 epic...
If Exile decides to go with his Barbarossa snenario, I would be happy to instead help him in any capacity.

I would want to show the collapse and struggle of 3rd Reich from a position were victory might still be visible...
Allied total war effort then makes itself felt...American landings, Soviet attacks, British massed air raids...The works!

The civs I would choose are as follows:

3rd Reich,
Italian Empire
Vichy France,
Soviet Russia,
United States,
British Empire,
Canada,

I will start a new tech tree today!

[jim panse]

What about the Aussies

[BillyBud]

Not sure what we can do with the idea of a Nazi A Bomb, but here is more information about this here:

1) Basically, Germany had taken over a heavy water plant in Norway and was producing heavy water which it was shipping to Germany for use in an A bomb project.


2) On May 19, 1945, a week after the Germans surrendered in World War II, the American Navy brought one of the biggest submarines of the Nazis, the U-234, into the harbour of Portmouth, New Hampshire, U.S. The U-boat had been captured before it could proceed on a secret mission to Japan slated for the end of March 1945.

Upon its arrival in the U.S., newspapers immediately reported on the unusual contents of the U-boat. There were French cognacs and 240 tonnes of weapon components for delivery to the Japanese ally. The most important part of the shipment, however, was 560 kg of uranium. As written on the U-boat manifest, the top-secret material was intended for the Japanese army.

http://www10.antenna.nl/wise/index.html?http://www10.antenna.nl/wise/447/4440.html

2) U-boats like the U-234 were involved in shipments of uranium oxide to Japan, as were some I-class Japanese submarines that sailed for France under the Yanagi scheme. The I-52 was sunk in the Atlantic before reaching France but Enigma decrypts disclosed that 800 kg of uranium oxide awaited at Lorient for the return voyage. The I-30 also sailed to Lorient and returned to Singapore, but struck a mine after leaving there for Japan. The I-29 made a voyage to France in late 1943, reaching Lorient in March 1944; it returned to Singapore, but on the next stage of her voyage was also sunk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unterseeboot_234

3) However, several historians have conjectured that some of the source uranium used for the "Little Boy" or (after conversion to plutonium) the "Fat Man" bombs may actually have been produced in Nazi Germany [citation needed]. Uranium was reportedly secured by Manhattan Project scientific director Robert Oppenheimer from the surrendering German submarine U-234 [citation needed]. The German U-boat had been on its way to deliver the uranium and other top secret German warfare technology to the then Empire of Japan. However U-234 surrendered following the end of hostilities in the European war theatre and Germany's unconditional surrender and was led on May 19, 1945 to Portsmouth, New Hampshire. Two Japanese military officials on board the German vessel committed suicide and were buried at sea [citation needed].

There are conflicting assessments of the importance of the German material to the Manhattan Project. The German uranium was likely to have been unenriched uranium oxide which would have yielded a small fraction of the amount of fissionable material used in the Little Boy: it is estimated that with technology available at the time, it was possible to obtain 4 kg of enriched uranium out of 560 kg of uranium oxide. Compare this to the 64 kg of uranium used in Little Boy. Conversely if the uranium was fully enriched, it seems unlikely that Germany would be exporting enough material to make a number of nuclear weapons to Japan. Recent literature has claimed that uranium oxide recovered from Germany had been used for the Soviet nuclear program. Furthermore, Japan had only 50 scientists working on its atomic bomb program and no known means of enriching uranium as the United States did at Oak Ridge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Boy

From the above we know that Germany had a large quantity of uranium oxide by 1945, but NO specific nuclear bomb.

Question: could this uranuim oxide be converted and then loaded onto V weapons and used as a chemical/radiation or "Dirty" weapon?

[BillyBud]

OK.

I think I answered my own question.

Here is a TIME article that states that uranium oxide CAN be used as a dirty bomb:

"Islamic extremists in Bangladesh may be trying to make a radioactive "dirty" bomb. On May 30, Bangladeshi police arrested four suspected members of a militant Islamic group, Jamaat-ul-Mujahideen, at a house in the northern village of Puiya. Officers also seized a football-size package with markings indicating it contained a crude form of uranium manufactured in Kazakhstan. Subsequent tests last week at the Bangladesh Atomic Energy Commission in Dhaka confirmed the 225-gram ball is uranium oxide—enough to make a weapon capable of dispersing radiation across a wide area if strapped to conventional explosives."

http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/article/0,13673,501030616-457395,00.html

[curtsibling]

Originally posted by jim panse
What about the Aussies

On a Euromap, the Aussies would be among the Brit Allies.



Speaking of maps, are you OK with the map from 'Blood & Steel II' being borrowed?