The switch from Monarchy to Republic

[Sharkbait]

I'd like some advice on how you all make this change - I'm terrible at deciding when, and usually lose about 200 years sorting out my mistimed efforts.

If you switch as soon as you get republic, what do you make sure you have in your cities in terms of improvements, units etc. I guess trade routes are right up there (but how many)?

Do you try and get Republic as soon as poss (if not going for early conquest) , or delay it and go for some other techs (if so what are they)?

I thank you.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

I have a few tests I use.

(Disclaimer: I am not an early lander, I'm an expander. I like playing on big maps, so a lot of my strategies are geared towards getting a lot of the wonders and keeping the settler and caravan factories churning along.)

1. Building Mikes. I can't remember switching to Republic before getting Michelangelo's Chapel. MC just makes the happiness issues so much easier to deal with, and helps make celebrations viable, too.

2. There comes a point when my capital/SSC starts to stagnate, around size 7-8, and my science rate starts to drop into the 8-9 turns/tech area. There's only so many cities that you can celebrate under a Monarchy and consequently there aren't many ways to squeeze science out of a Monarchy. Going to Republic is a better idea than building expensive Libraries anywhere.

3. After building Marco Polo (I usually try to build this after I pass the 20-tech mark, so I can take advantage of cheap research early on) and gaining maps with the AI. That lets me pick destinations for my caravans, which pay off MUCH better under a Republic. I swap/gift as many techs as it takes to get maps - this usually will drive my research costs through the roof and makes point #2 even more significant.

4. After gaining most of the early wonders I like (HG, Col, MC, MPE, sometimes Copes) and stocking up on some caravans (food and otherwise). I find that I'm shield-poor right after switching to Republic and picking up those maintenance costs, so I want to have a few 'vans standing by for wonder rushing or delivery (see point #3).

I never go to Republic before #1.
I seldom wait very long to go to Republic once #2 occurs.
#3 and #4 are more subjective.

To answer your question about improvements - none particularly. If I didn't have Mikes, Temples would be a necessity in most cities before the switch to Republic.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

double post

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

triple post; a new personal best!

[rjmatsleepers]

I usually switch to Republic on the next Oedo date after I'm ready to start celebrating my SSC. This means being in position to complete shakes, build an aqueduct and build a sewer system. It is typically sanitation that is the key tech - I start the ball rolling a few turns before discovering it. I have been known to stall for a turn - celebrating but not growing while I complete either the aqueduct or the sewer system.

I keep the luxury slider at the minimum necessary to maintain the celebration and the tax rate as high as I need to rush buy. This gives me a small hit on my research for a few turns.

I don't usually get much celebration in my other cities, but I will build colloseums there to help them out. I often remember to sell my temple when I complete shakes.

RJM at Sleeper's

[Sharkbait]

Thanks Six / rjm

I like the thoughts re getting the cheaper research for the first 20 and then planning the trade routes and THEn switching. Also like the stocking up on vans to avoid that painful shield deficit. I guess this also means that it helps if a lot of cities will be ready to celebrate and get their numbers of workers so that the deficit deosn't drag on too long.

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
I usually switch to Republic on the next Oedo date after I'm ready to start celebrating my SSC. This means being in position to complete shakes, build an aqueduct and build a sewer system. It is typically sanitation that is the key tech - I start the ball rolling a few turns before discovering it.

As late as sanitation eh? I think I'm heading to it too quickly both in terms of research and in changing governments. I'll have to experiment

[Ljube]

Since I only play MP games, I usually switch to republic immediately upon researching it (i.e. I research it for the purpose).

[Scouse Gits]

I don't use Rep at all - just stay in Monarchy until The Lady unleashes the hordes

Stu

[Grigor]

I recently did a game where I was in Republic for a good chunk of time before Mike's. As long as the non-SSC cities don't get too big, it can work fine. I ran 40% Lux for about 3 turns to get the empire to a general size 4 or 5, and then backed off to 10% until the SSC was up to size. After that, and with Mike's by that time, Lux can be at Zero.

Unlike Monarchy and Fundy, there is no benefit to trade arrows from celebrating in Republic or Democracy, so there is never any reason to celebrate except to grow.

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man

3. After building Marco Polo (I usually try to build this after I pass the 20-tech mark, so I can take advantage of cheap research early on) and gaining maps with the AI. That lets me pick destinations for my caravans, which pay off MUCH better under a Republic. I swap/gift as many techs as it takes to get maps - this usually will drive my research costs through the roof and makes point #2 even more significant.

Please clarify this for me. I just don't understand how you can research something faster than instantly. It is less important what the incremental research costs are compared to the time --in game turns-- that it takes to complete those first 20 techs. Tech costs will go "through the roof" at tech 21 no mater how or when you get to that tech choice.

Maps are vital. But having the AI do the research for you, or taking advantage of their "free" beginning techs --at the beginning of the game when it can be helpful-- is at least as important for getting a quick start in your research.

Forgive me, please, if I have completely missed the point.
Monk

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk


Please clarify this for me. I just don't understand how you can research something faster than instantly. It is less important what the incremental research costs are compared to the time --in game turns-- that it takes to complete those first 20 techs. Tech costs will go "through the roof" at tech 21 no mater how or when you get to that tech choice.

Maps are vital. But having the AI do the research for you, or taking advantage of their "free" beginning techs --at the beginning of the game when it can be helpful-- is at least as important for getting a quick start in your research.

Forgive me, please, if I have completely missed the point.
Monk

Well, true, there is something to be said for getting your first 20 techs as fast as possible by any means. But if you want 20 particular techs, trading before you hit the 20 mark runs the risk of 1) the AIs not having one or more of the specific techs you want and 2) going over the 20 tech mark via swaps.

The AIs will usually have stuff I don't want, like WarCode/Wheel, or stuff I don't want right away, like Map Making, usually (you would of course want Map Making to activate the map swap, or if you were on a small island. I seldom build LH, so usually I'm just as happy to delay MM until after things like Monotheism and Republic).

The situation is complicated when you play ToT as I do. The window of opportunity for tech and map swapping is the same turn that you make contact with a particular AI. Wait even one turn, and they'll happily take your offered gifts and then bugger off before you can ask for maps. And tech swapping becomes a lot more difficult too (as does extortion of tribute). So it's not a case of building MPE, swapping for the techs you want at the moment, and coming back later for the rest. It's an all or nothing proposition, usually. I'm not sure if Civ2 Gold is as bad, but I'm pretty sure 2.42 has a lot less nasty diplomacy than ToT.

Taking advantage of the free starting techs the AI has is a good concept, but I've never been able to make it work in the types of game I play. On gigamaps, I might meet one or 2 AI civs before 1 AD. So usually the only tech swapping mechanism is MPE. MPE becomes available with Trade, which I optimally take as my 7th tech, but often wind up getting later due to huts and whatnot. And by the time I'm at the point where MPE can be built, I'm often closer to the techs I want than the AI is. Key goals for me are, in order, Monarchy, Trade, Philosophy, Monotheism, Astronomy, and Republic. I'll nearly always have Monarchy (and Trade, obviously) before I could possibly build MPE. Philosophy is something I'll want first, so swapping is pointless. And I very rarely see an AI beat me to Monotheism or Republic (Astronomy is the one tech in my list that the AI not-so-infrequently gets to first).

I've been wordy there and probably not explained myself very well. In a nutshell, I use MPE to get (1) maps, (2) techs I don't have an urgent need for but will need to get eventually and (3) money. (1) can happen anytime. I like to delay (2) until my tech rate has slowed down anyway. I'll pick up everything the AI has (slowing my research down dramatically) - which is faster than researching those techs myself. My own research times will go way up, but I'll go into Republic soon after that and drop research times down again.

On a similar note... I often delay Darwin's Voyage just because I'd rather get 2 free techs when beaker costs are higher rather than lower...

[Grigor]

OK, this is getting interesting. This is the kind of question which makes this game so fascinating. I find it hard even to organize some principles by which one might even be able to frame an answer, much less make a decision based on anything other than hunch or habit.

I guess I am mostly with Monk here, because I find that I can avoid researching some precursor techs knowing that I can pick them up from the AI with MPE. Often I can leapfrog over Masonry and get Construction directly from the AI. I guess my biggest confusion in STYOM's analysis is the idea that tech growth should come from trade even more than beaker production.

On the later game issue, I remember that Ribannah used to delay Darwin's until she could get Automobile with it, thus making maximum use of the incremental beaker cost, as STYOM describes.

But there again, perhaps it would depnd on how the trades go - a down turn for demeanded items might argue for an earlier us of Darwins.

[rjmatsleepers]

I'm still having difficulty with the idea of delaying MPE until you have learned 20 techs. One of the key benefits of MPE is that you know exactly which techs the AI have. Unlike the situation without MPE, there is no risk of trading for a tech you don't want - you only initiate the trade if the AI has something you are interested in.

But it's even better than that. If the AI is researching a tech you already have, you can give it that tech and try to guide it towards a tech you want.

If they are already researching a tech you want, you have to decide whether to wait until they have finished or go for it yourself. They will usually be slower than you, but perhaps you can change the order you research without causing a problem. AFAIK, that's the only point where you might hit the 20 tech problem.

RJM at Sleeper's

[Bloody Monk]

@STYOM,

That's kind of a strawman, Six. Obviously, one would not trade for techs one doesn't need or want. But, you know that.

But, your point about TOT is solid. It just means we are not talking about the same game. (The TOT AI sounds ugly.) I happen to agree with your preferred tech-path. I just think you can get Philosophy, for example, a lot faster if you can get, say, Mysticism or Writing from the AI. And I think getting a boat in the water sooner is better. But I am a trader.

@ Grigor,

You are so right about different game styles determining different answers. I love to get near the end of a Landing game w/o having WC, Wheel, or Masonry yet. It means not having to wait to research some unneeded tech if I can accomplish a timely trade for a skipped tech.

My preference for Darwin is to get it as soon as I can arrange to get Indu and Corp as the free techs. Again, I am a trader and getting to Freights is a major goal for me. By that time in the game, tech costs are not a large concern because I am delivering lots of Freights and stringing one turn advances.

Monk

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
I'm still having difficulty with the idea of delaying MPE until you have learned 20 techs. One of the key benefits of MPE is that you know exactly which techs the AI have. Unlike the situation without MPE, there is no risk of trading for a tech you don't want - you only initiate the trade if the AI has something you are interested in.

But it's even better than that. If the AI is researching a tech you already have, you can give it that tech and try to guide it towards a tech you want.

If they are already researching a tech you want, you have to decide whether to wait until they have finished or go for it yourself. They will usually be slower than you, but perhaps you can change the order you research without causing a problem. AFAIK, that's the only point where you might hit the 20 tech problem.

RJM at Sleeper's

Not with ToT.

Once you have MPE (and are considered to have contact with the AIs) you have that turn to do all the swapping you plan on ever doing. After that, the AIs turn hostile within a turn or 2 and you haven't a much chance of swapping for something worthwhile. Even if you're Spotless.

In a non-ToT game, your strategy works fine. But to get the most out of MPE when playing ToT, I use MPE to enable tech swapping (getting ALL white techs at once, since I probably won't be able to get them later), map swapping, and a round of extortion, all at the same time. If I wait, I get nothing... I'd rather get something than nothing, and I'd rather get that something when my beaker cost per tech has already made that first big jump.

In subsequent turns I'll attempt extortion, and rarely will get anything. 5 times out of 6 (sometimes 6 times out of 6), it's either a refusal, or war.

I guess my biggest confusion in STYOM's analysis is the idea that tech growth should come from trade even more than beaker production.

Where did I say that?

I'll grab a number of techs at once the first turn MPE is active - that's the only techs I'll get via tech trading. This will drive up my beaker cost per subsequent tech.

At that point, I'll often go to Republic for the extra trade arrows (science boost) and really start to deliver Caravans in earnest.