Looking for new Scenario League administrators

[Mercator]

Not that I ever was an admin, but I'm resigning as a moderator here. And if I'd have the authority to do so, I'd fire St Leo as my last act.

I feel that the task of a moderator here is to stimulate discussion and actively participate in the community, apart from the proper moderating, of which there isn't a lot to do. Not to mention keeping track of interesting threads and such to keep the "Important Threads" up to date. I don't think I can or want to do any of those. So it's better if someone more dedicated to Civilization II and this forum takes over.

St Leo's last post in this forum was almost 3 months ago. As much as St Leo has been a rock in the Civ2 community, I don't think it's sensible to rely on someone who hasn't been around for so long.

Unfortunately, that also brings up another matter. St Leo is, as far as I know, the only admin of the SLeague website. Clearly no-one will be able to do anything there either. So I think it's also time to find people to take over the administration of the website. Or, if not take over, at least assist there. Mind you, that's different from administrating the wiki. A wiki admin has special access to the wiki (e.g. banning users from it), the website admin has access to the server itself on which the wiki is installed. The wiki site probably needs some staff too.

As much as there may have been a "renaissance", as some have called it, I think that was mostly just a Civ2 Creation renaissance. I think the Scenario League has been dead, or a headless chicken at least, for months or even years.

Does anyone remember the SL CivGroup? Well, we all sport the spiffy icon, but the last news item is almost a year old. The Source Code Petition isn't going anywhere. The SL website is a monstrosity with several half-finished versions co-existing in one big mess, and the wiki hardly taking off. Does anyone remember the tips subforum? And I forgot what happened to the 5th Scenario Design Contest.

Then again, I'm not here to criticise anyone. I don't want to sound disillusioned or cynical. I don't want this thread to turn into a discussion either, because these discussions usually don't get us any further. I think now is actually the time to do something. Whatever it is that needs to be done. I'm only one person after all, with one opinion, and I don't know what all of you think. Maybe you're all fine with how it is now. And after all, we're only a small community, and as much as we may hate it, Civ2 will continue to die (as slowly as it may go). So we also have to be realistic in what we, well, you, can expect to do.

What I do know is that I don't have the time or motivation to do any of it.

So I just like to retire and spend the rest of my Civilization II days sitting on the rocking chair on the veranda watching you kids play, giving advice if I have any to give, but letting the action up to you. Not that I ever was a man of much action myself. Not in the Scenario League anyway.


Oh, and I'd also like to note that I can't do anything you can't also do. I can't access the staff forum, and I don't have the phone number of MarkG's red phone. All I can do is open/close, top/untop, delete/move etc. posts/threads in this forum.

I'll stay moderator until replacements have been picked, or, if that's taking too long, we'll just revert to Ming being the only moderator.

Everything is up to you.

[Harry Tuttle]

Well Merc I would have to agree with you on many of the points raised. You're right, the SL civgroup is flacid, and I am as much to blame for that as anyone else. It was my adamant endorsement of the civgroup that helped create it. It was also my lack of involvement after its creation that helped to render it a non-help to the Civ 2 community. Like many my main reason for staying on this site is scenario creation, not publicizing it like a civgroup protagonist would.

I also would name myself as someone who doesn't adamantly support the community like I should. I do post regularly, but until as of late I rarely critiqued or playtested others scenarios. This is hypocritical, I know, seeing as I always ask for help with my projects.

I think what this forum needs is an administrator who is really into publicizing the community. Civ 2 is an old game, I know. We tried to create some sort of rebirth with the source petition, but after getting all the petition signatures, writing the letter, it seems that any sort of hope is lost. Firaxis says they have nothing to do with it. No one on the Firaxis team has offered up a point person to talk to, nor has there been any response from repeated emails to Take2. I sit here today thinking that we should just crack the game and hope that no one cares of the legal crap that comes with cracking the game open.

Anyways, I think the main resource we have here in our small community is the creators themselves. We don't like working with the new software that has come out. We like pixels that stay put, we don't like polygons and blended colors. We like Civ like we like civ, pixeled and easy to modify. We seek to improve on the game, but in other forms the game has already been improved upon.

My last, best hope for a game, along the lines of which we are accustomed to is Freeciv. Freeciv is like Civ2 and only carries with it the stigma of publishing games for the Freeciv compiled release that are open source. Many do not realize that in fact we could do the same with Freeciv as we do with Civ2. The only difference in our application is whether we wish for our creations to be released as open source or as an added fan modification that carries with it no open source guidelines. It is perfectly legal for us to modify Freeciv and to keep our graphics as our own. The only difference is that our user, common law copyrighted graphics will remain our own. Our own to see fit what others do with them. No one could steal our work or distribute our work, but it could still be used by individual users in tandem with Freeciv. Freeciv offers us a chance to directly interact with the programmers, plying them with whatever need we have.

Merc, you're right, Civ2 is like a 67 Chevy. We can paint it, we can add hydraulics to it, we can add in new modifications to it, but, truth be told, we cannot get Chevy to make us new ones.

The civ2 community cannot grow based on an old game. Though, it can grow on a remake of an old game, still being built. Our version of Civ, the kind that still runs on the vast majority of computers across the world, can be rebuilt, reborn even. It could be billed as the game that is open to all users, old computer or not. We have the base to expand upon, we just need others to see beyond the glitz and into the artistry and architecture that we have long held as our own.

Civ 2 is not dead, but it can live on in other, more worthwhile forms.

[curtsibling]

I agree with both Harry and Merc to an extent.

But I wouldn't say that the community here is dying.
Looking at CFC's CIV2 area, that is a slow forum....

But Poly is is rolling along. We have the best designers.
And yes we could do more, but we are here, nontheless.

We have the tools to make CIV, in various forms, more noticable.
Indeed, there is freeciv, and making news or reviews is a case of
dedication and being CIV-hungry. There has been a lull in the tide
of CIV2-related articles in Poly, and that is due to a distinct lack
of leadership, as Merc points out.

While I have massive respect for St. Leo, he is not very present on
the forums, and obviously Merc feels it is time to step down...SL
needs people who are not going to abandon the place and have no
major real-life responsibilities that will drag them away...

Competitions, reviews and tips...These are all easy to achieve.
We just need to kick start and foster a fresh attitude. CIV2
might not have legions of fans like CIV3/CIV4...But we still
have a moddable strategy game that reigns supreme.

It is a matter of morale and faith in the game.

And that starts at the top.

[Mercator]

I'm glad you agree.

But you also bring up another reason why I decided to stop. As much as I like hanging around this forum and fiddling around with Civ2 file formats every now and then. I've lost any interest in actually playing it, let alone playing scenarios (and I'm not playing Civ3/Civ4 either, just so you know I'm not a heretic ).

I don't think anyone should be feeling guilty for not doing anything either. I've seen it many times that someone steps up to the plate, does his job beautifully for a few weeks and then everything slows down again. I've seen it in this forum, on Apolyton, and with myself.

I don't honestly expect anyone to be able to take over all of these responsibilities. We'd need a big dedicated team to pull this off, and I don't think there are enough people to do that. Back when Civ2 started, most seemed to be highschool students. Now, everyone's grown up and has other things to attend to.

The question then is: what's the best way to do things within these limitations.

The website and wiki might be good enough as it is. As long as there's the occasional activity like now with the new reviews, it's the best we can expect. Everyone can add stuff there anyway. Though clearly, it would be desirable to have a website admin who is around and active all the time.

I think the most important thing is to have 2 or even 3 moderators whose only task it is to keep organizing the Great Library/"Important Threads" or add them to the wiki instead. Maybe it should just be the latter, because then we won't have to rely on MarkG to add the new moderators.
And perhaps their secondary task should be to appoint someone else when they aren't able to do that task anymore.

The advantage of a wiki is that everyone can change things, while on this forum only moderators can. The drawback is, when everyone can change things, everyone expects someone else to do it, while when only a few can, they know they have to (though that doesn't mean they will).

[Harry Tuttle]

How about we appoint a general council of moderators? They could all back up each other and be in charge of basic admin between the forums and wiki upkeep and expansion. The council could have three as you said with vice members helping out with various tasks. Like a bunch of librarians I say.

[Mercator]

Well, the only question is, will MarkG/DanQ agree?

[techumseh]

I don't think we need to over-organize things. We really don't need a "moderator" per se, since we're a remarkably well behaved bunch. And since more of us are getting the hang of the Wiki, I think you're going to see more action there.

All we need, IMHO, is someone to move the threads around occasionally, and someone to give help and advice on the Wiki from time to time.

I nominate Harry for moderator, and suggest that Merc hang around to provide technical assistance for the SL site.

ps. I owe St. Leo an apology. I gave him a hard time over the move to the wiki, but it actually seems to be working out well. It's not hard to use at all.

[curtsibling]

I second techumseh's suggestions...!

And the wiki will grow, I am sure.

Adding stuff is quite easy, so we will grow more ambitious in time.

.

[Mercator]

Originally posted by techumseh
I don't think we need to over-organize things. We really don't need a "moderator" per se, since we're a remarkably well behaved bunch. And since more of us are getting the hang of the Wiki, I think you're going to see more action there.

All we need, IMHO, is someone to move the threads around occasionally, and someone to give help and advice on the Wiki from time to time.

I agree. That's why I mentioned that the most important role of a moderator would be to keep things like the "Important Threads" list up to date. If that can all be moved to the wiki, a moderator wouldn't be necessary.

I nominate Harry for moderator, and suggest that Merc hang around to provide technical assistance for the SL site.

I can't do that. But then, what technical assistance exactly are you expecting from me? I don't have any sort of special access to the website. Well, I'm a wiki "sysop", but I don't want to be one, to be honest. That's also what I meant with me "retiring". I can make other people "sysops" too, though. I have zero experience with maintaining wikis myself, so I'm just learning too. I'm sure there are others at least as capable and more motivated than me.

[techumseh]

The reason I suggested this is your statement:

giving advice if I have any to give

, plus it was you and Leo that convinced (forced? ) us to take the wiki.

We need someone with some familarity with the wiki to ask questions of, from time to time.

[techumseh]

If you really want to retire, I can't argue with that. You've made a wonderful and long term contribution to this community, I know we all appreicate what you've done and wish you well on your rocking chair.

[Mercator]

Well, it's not like I'll be going anywhere, but I don't want to have any "official" position either. So I can answer questions (though I was more thinking in Civ2 terms), but I don't want to be the person people think they can turn to with all their problems.

I did start the wiki discussion, but I'd like to think everyone agreed to it.

[techumseh]

Originally posted by Mercator

I did start the wiki discussion, but I'd like to think everyone agreed to it.

Well, I sure as hell didn't, but I was wrong.

[Harry Tuttle]

Ummm, well thanks for your show of support Tech and Curt, but I don't want to be the sole responsible mod here. After all, it is up to the owners of the site. I think a couple of people could fill the role quite nicely. And please, I don't want to start any arguments here or debate "governing" or "elitism". As Tech said we are incredibly behaved here and very nice to others.

[curtsibling]

I understand Harry, sorry if we seemed to eager.

That really is just a testament to the esteem we have for you, dude.

But being a mod is no easy task. It is a thankless role that consumes a lot of time.

I would put myself forward as a candidate for mod,
if only to keep the forum tidy and help out if I can.

There are no judicial problems ever here in SL, so it
would be mostly a 'janitor' job, pure and simple...

Given the role, and basic know-how, I would be happy
to update the SL CIV2 news pages whenever required...