Global Warming help

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

@ Monk: My bad re: Hydro Plants. I was sure hills/mountains in the area allowed those - perhaps that was Civ 1???

@tgb

1. You'll find that almost all the wonders have their proponents here (except for perhaps Eiffel and Manhattan; wherever has Smokey the Nuke Man gone?). Pyramids speed growth, for sure, but on higher levels, your cities will start to go into disorder once they hit size 2. This can be obviated (in despotism, monarchy, and communism) with units in the city which act as martial law and quell unhappiness. That aside, there are a number of us who feel that too much growth in the early game is a bad thing. At higher levels (i.e. Deity), more growth just means more unhappiness, which can be trying until you have the improvements, wonders, and governments to manage it.

IMHO the best of the early wonders are Hanging Gardens, Marco Polo, and Colossus, in that order. Sun Tzu is great for early conquest, and Lighthouse will help your early trade and waterborne warfare - and can be crucial when you are on a little island. Others like Pyramids for the growth, and are willing to deal with the unhappiness issues. But rather than expound on the virtues of all the wonders - which we all can do at length, and we all have our own favourites - I'd suggest searching this or the Strategy forum for some Wonder tips.

2. Republic has a couple of advantages over Monarchy - an extra trade arrow in each square that already produces one (which means more science and cash per turn) and when a city celebrates in Republic it grows by one population unit per turn, so long as it has excess food and continues to celebrate. This is a huge benefit - cities can grown from size 4 to size 8, doubling their output, in a fraction of the time it would take under a Monarchy. The trick is being able to make them celebrate. In the very early game, this is often hard to do. Under a Monarchy, any city that celebrates will collect trade arrows as if it were in a Republic - so it often makes sense to stay in Monarchy, celebrate your key cit(ies) with improvements and luxuries, and keep the other ones content with Martial law (which doesn't work in Republic.

Bottom line: there are lots of strategies that work.

[rjmatsleepers]

My two bits worth on wonders. These comments are written in the context of early landing games where there are no starting techs and no hut popping.

Monk, I used to build HG, but gave up on it after trying MPE as my first wonder. I was concerned about the possibility of losing Colossus. I must go back and try HG again. (That is if I can find a break in my Civ IV games. )

thegreatbuddha - The problem with the Pyramids for me is that in the early game I don't want my cities to grow too quickly because of the problems with unrest. I think you said you are playing at Prince level. Once you are comfortable with this level, move up. At Deity, early growth becomes a major issue. When you hit the mid-game growth phase, Pyramids would be nice to have, but it's usually too late by then.

MPE is very valuable for guiding the AI research path. If anyone is researching a tech you already have, gift it to them. This will enable you to swap for techs you need at the time you need them - and has the side effect of keeping the AI civs sweet. Don't swap until you need the tech - it increases your own tech costs. (And of course bomb your key civ with techs to reduce your own costs.)

The main benefit of Republic over Monarchy is the growth in your SSC from WLTK days. I aim to go from around size 5 to around size 20 in consecutive turns, trying to time the discovery of the right techs to build aqueduct and sewer system on the turn I need to rush build. Every once in a while I succeed. During this phase I sometimes increase taxation in order to rush the buildings I need.

If you're not ready to grow your SSC, a celebrating monarchy gives you the extra trade arrows. Without HG, you will need at least one trade route unless you have a perfect site. You will usually need to increase the luxury level for one turn to start the celebration, but you can decrease it again once the celebration starts.

And yes, I too play with the sound off - but I'm afraid I don't have Sinatra or Metallica as a substitute.

RJM at Sleeper's

[Scouse Gits]

On the behalf of all of us sad people that still think Civ2 is the greatest game on earth - a heartfelt thankyou, tgb. You have revitalised this board!

Keep those questions coming.

Stu

[Elephant]

Pyramids is probably the wonder most desired by the AI in the early game. I play a lot of One City Challenges (OCC), where there can be a real race for early wonders, so I like to hold off gifting Masonry (and Literacy for GL) till I get into a tight race. Even playing multi-city Early Landing or Conquest I usually let the AI build it for me, then take it from them when I can handle the spurt in city growth. Of course, it does not help you at all if you don't have food surpluses in your cities.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
MPE is very valuable for guiding the AI research path. If anyone is researching a tech you already have, gift it to them. This will enable you to swap for techs you need at the time you need them - and has the side effect of keeping the AI civs sweet. Don't swap until you need the tech - it increases your own tech costs. (And of course bomb your key civ with techs to reduce your own costs.)

After the initial round of tech and map swapping when I get Marco, I have a hard time getting the AI to swap anything with me, playing ToT, even with a Spotless reputation. Are you playing MGE or 2.42?

@tgb

SSC=Super Science City. The benefits of Colossus, Copernicus, and Isaac Newton's College in one city really add up. Throw in Hanging Gardens (to facilitate celebration) and/or Shakespeare's Theatre (to eliminate unhappiness) and that one city can end up producing more Science than the rest of your empire put together - even a big empire.

[duke o' york]

tgb, in case you hadn't already realised this, this is the most important tip for new Civ II players!

BUILD CARAVANS!!!!!

You can use them to form lucrative trade routes, get one-off (huge) bonuses to cash and scientific research, and store them (mostly food caravans, because the commodity caravans are far more valuable to create trade routes) to build wonders in a single turn!

I don't mean to patronise you here, but this is one of the major feats than new players fail to appreciate (and exploit relentlessly ) that facilitate the step up from the lower levels to Deity.

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man


After the initial round of tech and map swapping when I get Marco, I have a hard time getting the AI to swap anything with me, playing ToT, even with a Spotless reputation. Are you playing MGE or 2.42?

I usually play 2.42. I've only gone to MGE for some of the democracy or succession games. I've never tried ToT. (And I've now been seduced by the dark side - Civ4 - so perhaps I never will.)

RJM at Sleeper's

[thegreatbuddha]

Why not build roads until Trade is discovered?

Apart from wasting settler turns that could be more productive, what's the downside?

[thegreatbuddha]

@doy

I realized the glories of (food) caravans in my 2nd game of Civ2. Washington (I always play American) had a slight food shortage, so New York built a food caravan to help out. I happened to be building Hoovers Dam at the time, and the standard caravan menu popped up, with the addition of Help build wonder. Curious, I chose that option, and wow, I was surprised.

Pleasantly surprised. Like, an official Red Ryder carbine action two-hundred shot range model air rifle with a compass in the stock and this thing that tells time for Christmas surprised.

Yeah, that surprised.

Haven't so much bothered with actual trade caravans though. I don't really have money problems, except in the early game (pre-Trade), where caravans aren't an option. But, as has been said by myself and others, I play either warlord or prince. Tomorrow I'll try a Deity game. Might not finish it, but the important thing is that I try.

The 2nd most important thing is that if I try and fail, there's a built-in cheat menu

[Grigor]

Why not build roads until Trade is discovered?

Apart from wasting settler turns that could be more productive, what's the downside?

Exactly.

I enjoy playing the early game as an exercise in efficiency and economy. The time spent roading affects not just the current settler generation (by which analysis the cost of a two turn delay in founding a city would be only 2 beakers and some food) but all the later ones, which are pushed back by the delay. This is the Turn Advantage concept. It is astonishing how those extra 2 turns compound over the next thousand years.

My understanding of it is as folllows (real economists help me here...):

The cost on turn 40 (2000BC) of that first turn road is the sum of two turns of current production of your entire Civ in turns 39 and 40, less the production of your civ for all the turns preceding the road building, less extra production from the building of the road (38 turns), less some factor for increased speed of settling due to the road, which tends to be negligible in the beginning.

C(t40) = P(t39) + P(t40) - P(t1) - P(t2) - RP(t3 thru t40) - Sfactor


After Trade, the increase in building speed due to faster caravan delivery and the decreasing of the advantage from ICS due to happiness problems generlly makes up for that inherent cost.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Roads in the early game

The trick in the very early game is knowing that every turn spent wandering (looking for a good city site) or roading, equals production time lost. That wandering or roading Settler could be a city, producing something.

Wandering has its benefits - without going into too much detail, there's no risk of barbarians from goody huts before you build your first city. So you can collect gold, and sciences, and most importantly, "free" units as you wander.

But the main thing with wandering is to find a good starting city site. What's a good site? Well, you've probably noticed that on certain tiles, a city can have access to 2, 3, or 4 terrain specials. More is better. Rivers are better (bonus trade arrows). Some ocean access is good. Relatively few undesirable terrain tiles (swamp, desert, jungle, tundra, glacier) is good. Too many forest tiles can inhibit your early growth.

If you haven't already, try turning on the map grid (Control-G) which will make it easier to see what potential city tiles give access to which specials.

Roads do 2 things: They make it easier for you to defend your cities and shuttle Freight around, and they provide a bonus trade arrow if you work a roaded plains/grass tile (or any tile that already produces trade).

You shouldn't need to start roading tiles to get extra trade until your city has grown to size 3 or 4. Thus, the trick is to find a good city site which can be trade-productive without roads.

[duke o' york]

Be aware that you get a bonus to trade routes if the two cities between which are linked by road (and later, railway). Now they have to be linked directly, according to the AI definition of the best route, so you can't have a road to the other city going via another city of yours and get the trade bonus for both cities. The AI definition is the most tricky bit, though, because while it is often the most direct route, this isn't always the case, and you may have to build a road across a mountain rather than the more sensible route of over plains instead. But if done early enough, then you'll get a decent boost to income for the entire game.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by thegreatbuddha
Haven't so much bothered with actual trade caravans though. I don't really have money problems, except in the early game (pre-Trade), where caravans aren't an option. But, as has been said by myself and others, I play either warlord or prince. Tomorrow I'll try a Deity game. Might not finish it, but the important thing is that I try.

Delivering caravans gives you a cash bonus AND a science bonus. The bonuses can be ridiculously good - in the thousands of gold and equivalent science. Making an effort to trade a lot really revolutionized my Civving. If there is one secret to winning on Deity, this is it.

Simple rules of trading:
Deliver caravans to AI cities where possible.
Deliver caravans to cities that demand the good in question.
Deliver caravans to cities on different land masses than the city the caravan comes from.
Deliver caravans to bigger cities.

[duke o' york]

Slightly more difficult rule of trading:
On the turn in which your caravan is to be delivered, then if you maximise the trade arrows produced by the home city (moving workers to get the most income possible, ignoring food and happiness requirements), you will get the highest possible delivery bonus.
Of course, you have to remember to put all of the changes back after the caravan has been delivered, or else you could find yourself in lots of trouble with starvation or unrest.

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by thegreatbuddha
Why not build roads until Trade is discovered?

Apart from wasting settler turns that could be more productive, what's the downside?

So, those were some very good answers to your question, thegreatbuddha. But, kind of long and nobody has mentioned the simple mechanics.

--Build a road, get +one arrow/turn, in two turns, if the tile is grass or plains

--Build a city (if close by), get at least +two arrows, possibly four/turn
(at least one for the city square and at least one for the tile the city gets to work.)

A settler is a worker, yes; but in the early game, it is city waiting to happen. Put the settlers to work as cities and get increased production, gold, and science. Also, keep in mind the food the supporting city has to "feed" the settler each turn (slowing its growth) during the interval before the settler becomes a city.

I encourage you to proceed quickly to play at Deity. Though it will be harder at first, the wins will all the sweeter.

Monk