why dbl production?

[StarLightDeath]

So your defending against barbarians takes away a valid strategy and adds what to the multiplayer experience? As far as I can tell, it simply adds more luck to tipping huts than there already is, and it removes strategy from the game. If you want to try to set traps to get your barbarian leader at their randomly generated uprisings and landing points (again, more luck) then just play against the AI. I fail to see the challenge in this.

[rah]

Simple yes, but it requires you have some. How many times have I looked at some of these uber expander empires after a game and seen that there wasn't a defender anywhere near the core of their empire. Or those that agree to play raging then lose 3 or 4 cities to barbs and claim they're a victim of bad luck. BAD LUCK THAT YOU DECIDED YOU GET AWAY WITHOUT DEFENDERS. Building only settlers is not a strategy.

Then in the next breath they say you're wasting resources by building a defender or a road network that allows you to defend with a miminal few horses. Those are choices. If you choose no defense, then you accept the loses. I don't want to hear *****ing since it was a choice.

And finally, If they're so easy to defend against, then getting them shouldn't be considered unlucky since they can't cause any damage.
You can't have it both ways.

[biru biru]

Help, my thread has been invaded by barbarians!

Best common argument among supporters of dble production seems to be that it 'speeds' the early game, for human contact and military/development options.

At the moment, I am still fascinated by the early game in 1x; especially the race for those first key wonders, although now that my games are reaching later ages, I am less inclined rather than more to thinking that they are so crucial. Possibly, with more experience, I admit I may be interested to try a faster early game.

Regarding the 'greater strategy options' debate: So far, it seems that a particular, very extreme expansionist strategy is the eventual option for dbl production. Lots of settlers, with explorers as attack units, if I am understanding correctly. This strategy can be better supported by other changes in the rules, including reducing the difficulty level and eliminating barbarians.

While this sounds very interesting , i am still managing to win without HG on diety 1x, and have not exhausted other strategies at that level. I'll admit that I may change my mind with more experience.

The default game, even for multiplayer, should of course be Diety, 1x1x. Different houses may well choose different house rules. Of course, this thread regards just production, and thus far 1x production makes for a good game.

[biru biru]

There was an additional argument that I dropped, worth considering. Starting location and terrain advantage has been cited by many 2x players as a problem for 1x play, and that 2x production minimizes this.

I will admit that for equally skilled players, terrain could certainly make the difference in 1x. I cannot comment on if the same is true for 2x, but welcome reply!

There is a tradition to allow each player one or more restarts by 3500 bc among the liga players I have met. This seems to diminish/eliminate the problem without having to "totally change the game around".

[rah]

In a three man game, I'm more willing to do a restart if someone is whining about their start position, since a three man game with one guy screwed early isn't much of a game.

In a four man game someone is always whining and some have been known to take advantage of it. i.e. I can open this hut with my second settler because if I get a barb and it's destroyed, I'll just get a restart. Reward without risk. Or they're already off the tech path and they tell you their starting position sucks. Or people that intentionally don't settle for 15 turns because their land wasn't perfect.

In a four man game, it's hard for everyone's start to be perfect. We do make exceptions for artic starts and other freaky things. (like when I started on a one square Island, or two players capitals are within 5 hexes of each other)

Getting a fair start is one thing, but keep restarting till you have an advantage just rubs me the wrong way.

[atawa]

Originally posted by biru biru
The default game, even for multiplayer, should of course be Diety, 1x1x.

Why

[rah]

Yeah, why.

[biru biru]

Fair enough; How about

IF there is a default setting, it should be diety 1x1x.

1) Everyone can play it. Players comming out of single player are ready to go. In contrast, 2x production obviously takes several games to even begin to get the hang of.
2) It is the traditional setting for papers on civ strategy, here at Apolyton and elsewhere.
3) You have to hit an extra button to change the setting, at least the first time, since the game default is 1x.
4) There is a purple goat sitting on my toe.

Anyway, maybe multiplayer games don't need a default; the game can be played however. But since I snuck that bit about defaults in, yeah, I think that diety 1x1x is how the game gets played most, and should be assumed if assumptions are needed.

[Hydey]

Just play the game the way you enjoy it .

[Ming]

Originally posted by Hydey
Just play the game the way you enjoy it .

Everybody is welcome to their own opinin on what settings are the "best". And lord knows we still continue to argue what the "best" settings are...

But it still comes down to the fact that we are playing a game... and a game should be fun. So play whatever settings you like.

[StarLightDeath]

When the game was still alive, 2x2x King players outnumbered 1x1x Deity players 5-1. You could go into the zone room and there would be 50 people all playing ladder 2x2x King games. It is only now that the game is dead and there are only lesser skilled players left that Deity 1x1x players now outnumber the 2x2x players. 2x2x King has always been the standard for multiplayer competitive play and it always will be. Rah and his kind have always played in their little group on here and they never participated in the higher levels. If the majority of people really believed 1x1x Deity was a better MP setting then the ladders would have been 1x1x Deity ladders...but they're not and they never will be. The Deity league is composed of nobodies and ex-2x2x players that couldn't win on the old ladders so they fled into seclusion on their little known 1x1x Deity ladders. The fact is that all new players start off on 1x1x Deity, then they graduate to 2x2x King...but the civ2 community is gone so that no longer happens. Just try looking up strategies for 1x1x Deity, they don't exist. On the other hand you will find tons of 2x2x King strategies. I rest my case.

[rah]

Our little group. I have to laugh. We've had over 50 players participate over the years. No it wasn't any of your sacred ladder games where cheating was rampant. It was a fun group that enjoyed 2x1x.

Different strokes for different folks. I have never said any settings were better, just which I prefered.

[StarLightDeath]

No, but you have called me a one trick pony. A point which "I have to laugh" at. I've played all the settings, you only play one. I've written strategies and beaten the best players at their own settings, you have kept to your little group. Don't tell me it wasn't little because you count everyone who plays one session. I need only go back and look at your threads to see who exactly has played with you over the years. Somehow I doubt you can compare to me...in many respects. I know more than you, end of story.

[Ming]

The ignorance of youth

You are the one that claims only the settings you like are the best... It seems like other people are saying you should play the settings you enjoy. The play on different settings is just that... different... to each their own. To claim one setting, just because you like it, is the best is pretty funny.

And back when ladder players were using two computers and lord knows what other cheats to prove their superority over other players, our group did indeed have far more than 50 active and regular players. None of us liked playing with cheaters

[Deity Dude]

I think one of the reasons 2x2x king came into vogue was because most of the zone players wanted to play 3 or 4 games a night. Same reason why speed chess is much more popular than untimed chess on the internet.

Each game has its own style and feel. 2x2x king duels are much more about expansion and war. 1x1x deity (especially with 4, 5 or 6 players) is more about civ building. 2x1x is somewhere in the middle.