The Desert War - Preview and development thread

[Eivind IV]

Why can't I find anything on the Italians anywhere? (The 55th Savona, the 27th Brecsia, the 25th Bologna, the 17a Pavia and the 132a Corazzata in particular). At least I've failed up to now browsing through the net for OOBs from the march '41 assault. That's the only thing obstructing me at the moment...

Also, Gareth, any news on when you figured all these units were reinforced during the campaign?

[worcesteradam]

wonderfull lookings screenshot.
at least the graphics look good

[Exile]

See if you can find;

1.) the OOB for the Italian/Germans from the Avalon Hill boardgame Afrika Korps. The regional names of the Italian divisions are on those unit counters.

2.) The SPI boardgame PanzerArmee Afrika. The units in that game are regimental/brigade size and are identified by the numbers.

You can cross-check the divisional size units and their time of appearance in the first game with the timed appearance of the numbered units of the 2nd game to determine relative strength and association of individual regiments with the regional names of the divisions.

This might not be as easy as it sounds.

Here's the AH units; http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/46654

[Eivind IV]

Thanks Exile. It's definately worth an idea. Are they on battalion level though? I already have regiments covered, but that's not good enough for me.

I failed upon some tries on google to locate it. It said it could be found in the manual though. Would anyone happen to have the Avalon Hill Afrika Korps?

Gareth mentioned that he had some books on this matter though.

Why arn't there an order of battle.com page out there? *sigh*

[Case]

Originally posted by Eivind IV
Why arn't there an order of battle.com page out there? *sigh*

My list of order of battle websites may be of interest: http://orbat.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4

As an aside, that list was the first thing I've ever written to earn the dubious distinction of being plagiarised - someone on another board posted it under their log-in without attribution!

[Bostero]

more info that can be useful.

http://213.45.7.251/regioesercito/regioesercito/reorg.htm

(source in italian language)
There you have the organization and how are consisted each Infantry Division, Armored Divison, Regiments,Artillery,etc.

http://www.comandosupremo.com

(source in english )

here you have another site related to the Standard OOB, basically the divisions "Brescia, Bologna, Pavia, Savona" (all these infantry divisions) first saw actions at March-April '41 during first rommel offensives.
*The 132a armored division is the so famous "Ariete".

there is also inlcuded a forum in this page, where you can ask about everything, its very active

hope to see this released soon.

[Eivind IV]

Grazie Bostero! I hope those sites will do the job.

I took a look at the first url, and failed to find the detailed oob of those divisions at March 1941. My Italian's a bit rusty though. Maybe you could help?

I've already browsed through the Commado Supremo for oob's, but I couldn't find any from that partidcular offensive. Here as well I couldn't find any detailed oob's. If I fail to find anything anywhere, I'll just have to asume there are 3 battalions per regiment, plus an artillery battalion or something. But I'll take a crack at that forum before I do.

Cheers!

[Bostero]

The infantry division: was the more important unit of the Italian army, had a force of approximately 13.500 men and comprised:
-general commando and quartier
-2 regiments of infantry,
-1 mortar battalion from 81 milimeter
-1 companies guns antitank from 47/32 on 4 platoons
-1 Regiment of artillery
-1 engineer company handicraftsmen,
-1 mixed company telegraphers and wirelesses oparator,
one section fotolettricisti, one medical section, one supply section, one heavy truck platoon.

i guess you are going to represent in your scen the regiments. the AT and AA and engineers could be also placed??if so, take into account the info above.

Regiment of Infantry

At the beggining of 1940, each regiment had assigned 2 battallions, but in 1941 (to reinforce the North Afrika Campaign) the Italian North Afrikan divisions received abother extra battallion. (AFAIK, the Pavia and Brescia did). So yes, Eivind, you was right when you wanted to put 3 Batalions.

The infantry regiment had a force of approximately 3.279 men and it was articulated on:
commando and headquarters company,
2 or 3 battalions of riflemen (constituted from a headquarters company, 3 rifle companies, and a subordinate infantry-support weapons company),
1- 81 mm mortar company,
1- company transported by pack animal guns from 47/32 milimeter on 3 platoons.

Regiment of Artillery

The artillery regiment was constituted:
-unit and headquarters company
-group guns from 75/27 milimeter motorized on 3 batteries of 4 pieces,
-group howitzers from 100/17 milimeter motorized on 3 batteries of 4 pieces,
-group howitzers from 75/13 transported by pack animal milimeter on 3 batteries
-antiaircraft battery from 20mm on 4 sections of 2 pieces.



This is the theorical organization of each division, of course this may variate from one date to even the next day. 3 batt per regiment? this is hard to know, but assuming the pavia and brescia had 3, the rest as well. you should go and ask to the forums. some users have good books with maps, locations of units, constant reinforcements to each division,etc.

woof, i guess this is the most i can contribute to you.

luck.

[Eivind IV]

Cheers Bostero!

I got some response in the forum and ombined with the info you've provided Italy is all set.

I throw the towel in. I just decided to abondon the Med theatre. I'm working on a map following these lines, with complete focus on the Libya-Egypt theatre.

[fairline]

Good choice Eivind

Now, where was that OOB I promised you........?

[Eivind IV]

March 1941

Originally posted by fairline
Good choice Eivind

Now, where was that OOB I promised you........?

No sweat, I think I have everything in order now. These are my oob translations into Civ2. (Feel free to correct them):

ALLIES

9TH AUSTRALIAN DIVISION (Benghazi):
20, 24th and 26th Australian infantry brigade:
- 3 aus inf (mot) x3
- 1 arty x3
(- 1 recon x3)

---------------------

2ND ARMOURED DIVISION (Msus):

2 Support Group:
- 3 brit inf (mot)
- 1 25 pdr
- 1 Anti Tank
- 1 recon Armoured Car

3rd Armoured Brigade:
- 3 A15 Crusaders

---------------------

3RD INDIAN MOTOR BRIGADE (Tobruk):
- 3x infian inf (mot)
- 1 arty

---------------------

6TH INFANTRY DIVISION (Alexandria):

16th Infantry Brigade:
- 3 brit inf (mot)
- 1 25 pdr
- 1 Anti Tank
- 1 recon (Armoured Car, Bren Carrier?)

22nd (Guards) Infantry Brigade:
- 3 brit guards inf (mot)
- 1 25 pdr
- 1 Anti Tank
- 1 recon (Armoured Car, Bren Carrier?)

---------------------

18TH AUSTRALIAN INFANTRY BRIGADE (Alexandria):
- 3 aus (mot)
- 1 arty
(- 1 recon)

---------------------

7TH ARMOURED DIVISION (Cairo):

4th Armoured Brigade:
- 3 A15 Crusaders

7th Armoured Brigade:
- 3 A15 Crusaders

7th Support Group:
- 3 brit inf (mot)
- 1 25 pdr
- 1 Anti Tank
- 1 recon Armoured Car

---------------------

POLISH BRIGADE: (Cairo)
- 3 pol inf (mot)
- 1 arty
(- 1 recon)

---------------------

MIDDLE EAST GHQ: (Cairo)

4th Royal Tank Regiment:
- 3 vickers MK VIB

7th Royal Tank Regiment:
- 3 vickers MK VIB

----------------------------------------------

GERMANS (El Agheila)

15TH PANZER DIVISION:

8. Panzerregiment:
- 2 Pz III
- 1 Pz IV
- 3 Mot Inf Bat.

15. Schützenbrigade (mot):
- 2 Pz III
- 1 Pz II
- 3 Mot inf Bat.
- 2 Motorsycle Bat.
- 3 Artillery Bat.

---------------------------

5TH LEICHTE DIVISION:

5. Panzer-Regiment:
- 2 Pz III
- 1 Pz IV
- 2 Machinengewehr Inf. Bat.
- 1 Mot inf Bat.


104. Infanterie-Regiment:
- 2 Pz III
- 1 Pz II
- 3 Mot inf Bat.
- 2 Motorsycle Bat.
- Flaks

-----------------------------------------------

ITALIANS (El Agheila)

55TH DIVISION SAVONA:

15 Rgt. Fanteria (Savona):
- 3 inf's
- 1 arty (mortar)

16 Rgt. Fanteria (Savona):
- 3 inf's
- 1 arty (mortar)

---------------------

27TH DISISION BRESCIA:

19 Rgt. Fanteria (Brescia):
- 3 inf's
- 1 arty (mortar)

20 Rgt. Fanteria (Brescia):
- 3 inf's
- 1 arty (mortar)

---------------------

25TH DISISION BOLOGNA:

39 Rgt. Fanteria (Bologna):
- 3 inf's
- 1 arty (mortar)

40 Rgt. Fanteria (Bologna):
- 3 inf's
- 1 arty (mortar)

---------------------

17A DIVISIONE PAVIA:

27 Rgt. Fanteria (Pavia):
- 3 inf's
- 1 arty (mortar)

28 Rgt. Fanteria (Pavia):
- 3 inf's
- 1 arty (mortar)

---------------------

132A DISISION ARIOTE:

32 Rgt. Carri (Ariete):
- 3 CV-33 (L3)

132 Rgt. Carri (Ariete):
- 2 M13/40

8 Rgt. Bersaglieri (Ariete):
- 2 Bersaglieri inf (mot)
- 1 armoured car

[Eivind IV]

Aiforce (until reinforced):

Axis (El Agheila):
- 1 Ju-87
- 1 Me-109
- 1 He-111

Allies (Benghazi):
- 3 Hurricanes

[N35t0r]

Panzer General 1 has a couple of scenarios (and a campaign) that covered almost the same map...

It's pretty abstracted, but I can give you a list of the units the Germans, Italians and British start with...

A couple of screenshots could also be obtained, but I'm not sure I'll be able to get them (I go the game to run on a machine with DOS, and it might not work on windows (so no print screen))

[Case]

Re: March 1941

Originally posted by Eivind IV


No sweat, I think I have everything in order now. These are my oob translations into Civ2. (Feel free to correct them):

ALLIES

9TH AUSTRALIAN DIVISION (Benghazi):
20, 24th and 26th Australian infantry brigade:
- 3 aus inf (mot) x3
- 1 arty x3
(- 1 recon x3)

What does each recon unit represent? Commonwealth infantry divisions had a recon regiment [a recon 'regiment' was a battalion if you're not familiar with British naming conventions - artillery and armoured 'regiments' were also battalions] at divisional level and a bren carrier platoon in each infantry battalion. The Bren carriers were strictly used for tactical recon and shouldn't be represented seperately from their parent battalions/brigades IMO.

[Eivind IV]

Just want to inform all that progress has gone steadily forward, even though I havn't posted in some time. Also, for those of you familiar with my earlier maps, you know I take much pride into putting attention to details. Quite a prefectionist you might say. So much time up til now has been to work on the map. But as this will be a mere combat scenario, that and the placement + events, will be most of the scenario process making.

Currently I'm working on cities.

What does each recon unit represent? Commonwealth infantry divisions had a recon regiment [a recon 'regiment' was a battalion if you're not familiar with British naming conventions - artillery and armoured 'regiments' were also battalions] at divisional level and a bren carrier platoon in each infantry battalion. The Bren carriers were strictly used for tactical recon and shouldn't be represented seperately from their parent battalions/brigades IMO.

That's why they are in brackets, I'm not sure whether to include them or not. I think I'll end up having a seperate recon unit for those regiments listed. For the germans it's the motorsycle unit. In this way my motorsycle unit is finally put into use as well But mostly because I need to fill up the units after so many units can now be added as the theatre is narrowed down. And I'm all out of ideas. So if you guys can't help me to say when the various units got reinforced with new tankd models, or whatever, I'm going to have a famine of units...