Warlords of China update

[curtsibling]

I notice she has had some 'enhancements!'

[Patine]

A question, Techumseh, about the Hong Kong unit. I assume it's a near-invulnerable, immobile unit used so a faction isn't needed to own the city and so it takes up no spaces in it's production radius and produces no units. But, what I wanted to ask is thus: did you use the trick involving changing terrain in some certain way under a city to give it a city name (assumably 'Hong Kong') underneath the unit? I discovered that trick by accident in terrain changes with events in an early edition of RotTR, but am still uncertain what conditions are needed for the name to linger and how to replicate the feat, as in my test, only 3 of about 18-20 city names lingered.

[techumseh]

It was originally a unit, however in playtesting, other civs attacked it with air units, regardless of it's strength. As this just caused AI civs to lose their scarce air units, I decided to look for another solution.

Since the scenario disallowed the construction of forts, I decided to use a fort to represent Hong Kong. I put it on an ocean tile, so no one can occupy it, though ships come and go. I've attached a screenie.

As for your trick, I'm unfamiliar with it, so I can't be of any help there. Sorry.

[techumseh]

I think this baby is ready for playtesting! I'll email it to my playtesters this week. In the meantime, I'll work on fine tuning it and doing a Readme.

[curtsibling]

Great stuff! (count me in!)

Do you want a news item put up on the SL info pages?

[techumseh]

Thanks. I'll let you know when it's ready for posting.

[Boco]

That's a good trick with Hong Kong.

Patine, if you can rediscover that trick, please post it! Even if the name doesn't linger.

[Harry Tuttle]

Originally posted by Boco
Patine, if you can rediscover that trick, please post it! Even if the name doesn't linger.

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=74683

[Boco]

Oh, that trick (thanks HT)! I thought Patine had something using the events file.

Patine, that can be done very reliably via hexing or using a sequence with transporter and city building in multi-map ToT. If you need help and are working in ToT, post your question (perhaps in your thread, so that you don't reward hijackers like me ).

[Harry Tuttle]

Originally posted by Boco
Oh, that trick (thanks HT)! I thought Patine had something using the events file.

No, he did, but essentially the mechanic is the same. I would try Henrik's device first as it can be controlled by the designer whereas Patine said his way only sometimes worked. Each way should yield the "landmark" names.

[Patine]

Techumseh, check your PM's.

[AGRICOLA]

Playing Kuomintang , Deity, end of September, 1919

This is a very fun and very interesting scen to play. As this is my first exposure to the turbulence of China in the first half of the 20th century, I'm finding it absolutely fascinating.

Unit balance appears to be good, so far at least. Considering the low quality of draftees, it seems appropriate that vet units cannot be built. Units have to be "blooded" against carefully selected targets in order to try to achieve vet status. Non-vet attacks are virtually suicidal against cities with terrain D bonuses. Aircraft have the realistically short ranges and poor fighting strength of WWI planes.

Diplomacy is interesting to say the least. The ancient Chinese poverb that "Let sleeping tigers sleep" is not a bad guideline. Neither is the more modern but less sanitary approach of kissing everybody's a**. Also, subversion has its uses.

The low shield productions in most cities accurately reflects the non-industrialized state of China. Units take forever to build so means have to found to generate cash, lots of cash, to IRB them . . . . a good problem for players to solve.

Strategy is definitely critical in conquering a vast country against an assortment of actually or potentially hostile AI klutzes. Unfortunately, nothing can be done about the shortcomings of the AI.


Now for the bitc*ing and kvetching:

Canton automatically loses one of its units when the scen is loaded. Could Canton's city supply squares be switched around in the .scn file?

Should tech trading be possible? By the end of 1919, Kuomintang has traded for 5 techs and has only 3 more to research before International Appeal 1 (Future Tech 1).

Players probably need some explanation of how the tech tree works. Right now I have no idea of which techs Kuomintang needs to research or what the various techs are good for. I'm operating entirely on complete faith in the designer's deviousness and the assumption that all techs need to be researched and that additional techs will become available in time. The bummer is that this will require ongoing research of useless Future Techs in order to check on the availability of additional techs. I don't suppose there is any chance of a popup saying something like "Hey stupid, start researching, " when additional techs become available?

In the event that Comintern is captured and the commies split into 2 factions, rather than the new faction being named "E", you may want to supply an actual name such as the Trotsky Faction. Admittedly, I do poke around in the strangest corners of scens, looking for rewarding moves. To me, wiping out the Commies sounds like the only way to achieve internal peace in China. Capturing Comintern is a lengthy but simple tactical problem once the Kuomintang have captured Tatung. A Coolie, a couple of vet Mortars and a Spy with a moderately heavy bag of gold should be able to do it.

Is there supposed to be pollution in this scen? Wuhan started to produce some after it built a Power Plant.

In this scen, Cathedrals are called Temples and Temples are called Shrines. Description of the Big Goose Pagoda wonder, IMHO a marvelous name open to all kinds of interpretations , incorrectly says that it doubles the effect of Temples rather than Shrines.

Building a Temple appears to have no effect on the happiness of the population. The Temple icon also does not appear in the happiness window. Is this possibly linked to calling a Cathedral a Temple?


Damn fine scen. Below, in red, is Peanut's empire at the end of September, 1919.

[techumseh]

Originally posted by AGRICOLA
Playing Kuomintang , Deity, end of September, 1919

This is a very fun and very interesting scen to play. As this is my first exposure to the turbulence of China in the first half of the 20th century, I'm finding it absolutely fascinating.

I'm glad you find it so. I also find this period absolutely fascinating. If I can portray just a bit of that in this scenario, I'll have succeeded.

Canton automatically loses one of its units when the scen is loaded. Could Canton's city supply squares be switched around in the .scn file?

That's a fix on my list.

Should tech trading be possible? By the end of 1919, Kuomintang has traded for 5 techs and has only 3 more to research before International Appeal 1 (Future Tech 1).

Probably not. Most techs are not worth trading anyway, since only the first to research gets the units.

Players probably need some explanation of how the tech tree works. Right now I have no idea of which techs Kuomintang needs to research or what the various techs are good for. I'm operating entirely on complete faith in the designer's deviousness and the assumption that all techs need to be researched and that additional techs will become available in time. The bummer is that this will require ongoing research of useless Future Techs in order to check on the availability of additional techs. I don't suppose there is any chance of a popup saying something like "Hey stupid, start researching, " when additional techs become available?

Here's the explanation I gave at the start of the thread:

"Yup. It's very simple actually. You research arms deal techs with the British, French, White Russians, Germans/Italians, Americans, and/or Soviets. These serve as one set of pre-reqs. The other half of the pre-reqs are given every 5 years: Late 10's, Early and Late Twenties and Early and Late Thirties.

So on Jan 1925 you automatically get the Late 20's tech, along with everyone else. If you've researched an arms deal with the Germans/Italians, you now have both pre-requisites for the Junkers K53 tech. Whoever researches this tech first, gets 3 of the aircraft units delivered at his capital the next turn. Anyone who researches this tech later, gets nothing.

Similar events exist for all types of hardware from the various arms suppliers. This is the only way to get these types of units, they can't be built or replaced. The Kwantung Army (Japanese) have a separate tech tree for their heavy equipment, while the Communists just get money from Stalin."

In the unlikely event that Comintern is captured and the commies split into 2 factions, rather than the new faction being named "E", you may want to supply an actual name such as the Trotsky Faction. Admittedly, I do poke around in the strangest corners of scens, looking for rewarding moves. To me, wiping out the Commies sounds like the only way to achieve internal peace in China. Capturing Comintern is a lengthy but simple tactical problem once the Kuomintang have captured Tatung. A Coolie, a couple of vet Mortars and a Spy with a moderately heavy bag of gold to subvert/bribe and to RB should be able to do it.

Leave it to you to think of that! OK, I'll add "noschism" to the events. I was saving one unit slot for something, perhaps I'll make some unbribable fort units with a defense of 98 - maybe I'll call it the AGRICOLA Line!

Is there supposed to be pollution in this scen? Wuhan started to produce some after it built a Power Plant.

No. I'm surprised. I'll look into it.

In this scen, Cathedrals are called Temples and Temples are called Shrines. Description of the Big Goose Pagoda wonder, a marvelous name open to all kinds of interpretations, incorrectly says that it doubles the effect of Temples rather than Shrines.

Building a Temple appears to have no effect on the happiness of the population. The Temple icon also does not appear in the happiness window. Is this possibly linked to calling a Cathedral a Temple?

I spotted that myself after capturing Shanghai and trying to get it to feed itself (size 18). For some reason, I've made Monotheism a no, no advance, so it can't be researched, rendering Cathedrals usless. I need to go back and figure out why I did that.

Damn fine scen. Below, in red, is Peanut's empire at the end of September, 1919.

Well, the fact that you'd conquered half of China in less than 3 years would create concern about play balance if it were anyone else. Still, I need to keep an eye on that issue. The idea is that it should be more fun than hard, but sometimes the two go together.

[Boco]

Originally posted by AGRICOLA
In the event that Comintern is captured and the commies split into 2 factions, rather than the new faction being named "E", you may want to supply an actual name such as the Trotsky Faction. Admittedly, I do poke around in the strangest corners of scens, looking for rewarding moves. To me, wiping out the Commies sounds like the only way to achieve internal peace in China. Capturing Comintern is a lengthy but simple tactical problem once the Kuomintang have captured Tatung. A Coolie, a couple of vet Mortars and a Spy with a moderately heavy bag of gold should be able to do it.

Originally posted by techumseh
Leave it to you to think of that! OK, I'll add "noschism" to the events. I was saving one unit slot for something, perhaps I'll make some unbribable fort units with a defense of 98 - maybe I'll call it the AGRICOLA Line!

So, is it your intention that the Commies remain invincible throughout the scenario? You might want to make the AGRICOLA Line stacked so that unit sabotage is not an option either (not that I've looked enough to see whether that tactic is even feasible in WoC! ).

[EDIT]
Btw, what're the odds that China will break down again into bastions of Warlords?
[/EDIT]

[AGRICOLA]

I'd rather be lucky than good. Despite not reading what I should have read (duh?) I lucked out in that, quite by accident, I researched Char Schneider (nasty brutes) and FE 2b first. Got 3 of each in July 1919. Ever since, the Chars have been bad news for coolies armed with flintlocks. However, the %$#@* FE 2b's are still trying to catch up to the ground forces.

Thanks for the tip on where to find info on the structure of the tech tree. Very interesting and competitive approach as to who gets the units. One could look at it as a case of who comes up with the highest bid for a limited amount of available equipment.

The Spy is a bit of a red herring in the proposed Comintern caper. Its intended job was to subvert Ulaan Bataar so that one or both of the Mortars wouldn't get banged up in taking the city. I figured that a small barb city, way out in the boondocks wouldn't cost much if creating an incident was not a concern. The Coolie, 2 Mortars and what gold remained in the bag would handle the rest.

The speed of conquest is no particular mystery.

1. The primary targets are the larger, more industrialized cities of northern and eastern China. Cities smaller than size 5 don't produce enough shields to be worth going after until later or unless absolutely necessary for flank protection. Excepting a few poppy fields, there is little of immediate interest in western and northwestern China.

2. Any major advance has to be along RR's. Moving units along roads wastes a huge amount of valuable time, especially early in the scen when time is of the essence. Road-bound operations can wait until later.

3. The inability to build barracks means that damaged units recover slowly, especially if they show short, red health bars. Consequently, after all defenders have been eliminated in a city, only the most damaged unit is used to capture the city, even if it means waiting until the following turn. Instant health!

4. Peiping is the key city in this scen. Taking and holding it generates at least 3000 gold over the duration of the scen.

5. Don't start fights that you don't need or want. It is better to subvert commie cities within your territory (no incident, of course) than to put up with the presence of the vermin infested running dogs or start a war with them. One opponent at a time is quite enough, thank you. An added bonus of this approach is that one can get a Merchant from Canton to Shanghai quite safely at 170+ flasks and gold a pop.


Current planning is concentrating on how to handle the Kwantung Army imperialists when push comes to shove and whether to leave Shanghai in grubby barbarian hands or try to arrange its capture by the pig farmers of the League of 5 Provinces. Shanghai is and will remain the "Trading City" for the duration of the scen.

P.S. "AGRICOLA Line"? Bah, humbug!