The West Awakens

[Broken_Erika]

LMAO ,I love the shield on that guy, what ship graphics shall you be using?

[beingofone]

what ship graphics shall you be using?

That would be up to Fairline. He is meticulous in his historical accuracy as well as very good at creating units, when he isn`t altering units someone else created. Maybe that was just an ornery rumor started by a 10 year old newbie LOL.

I am almost done with the unit manifest Fairline, should give you lots of breathing room as I still have alott of tweaking to do.

Erika - I can`t remember meeting a girl as young as you with your passion for history. Where were you when I was a teenager? All the girls I knew in High School were all interested in dating and oh yeah chocolate. They for the most part thought I was a nerd for my passion for history.

Good to see a young bright mind out there in the world.

[fairline]

Originally posted by beingofone
That would be up to Fairline. He is meticulous in his historical accuracy as well as very good at creating units, when he isn`t altering units someone else created. Maybe that was just an ornery rumor started by a 10 year old newbie LOL.

Careful, or I'll go all high and mighty and shouty, like I did in the industrial gfx thread. I'm a bit embarrassed by that

I only have a Greek trireme; there's no beating Bernd Brosing's ships, so I would recommend you use those.

I am almost done with the unit manifest Fairline, should give you lots of breathing room as I still have alott of tweaking to do.

Go ahead and PM me your list. I have just completed my rehash of Greek units, which I'll post in the ancient gfx thread. There free to use of course, and I'll modify as required depending on your requirements. Then again, I could simply repaint somebody else's units for you, as apparently I'm known to do

[beingofone]

Quick update

Each unit in the game will simulate an entire small army.
Hit point = 1000 men
Attack strength = shock and morale
Defense strength = adjustable because of game engine but basically elan and discipline
Firepower = training and equipment
Increased stats = improved tactics (such as the Theban crescent phalanx)

Many of the Greek stats will be similar with subtle variations such as more firepower for early Spartans.
I am using board wargame combat factors to put together the armies. So my calculator is getting a good workout.

Hardly any terrain modifiers because almost all battles of this time period were on a flat or rolling field. The system seems to be working for the historical desired effect.
Should be finishing beta soon, I still have to plug in world wonders and clean up the tech tree.

Fairline, cool new units and thanks for the correction on the Macedonian phalanx, I had the name of the Diodachi period DO`H.

SCREENSHOT -
The Battle at Leuctra, 371 B.C. the Spartans get crushed
Sparta Thebes
Hoplites 10000 6500
Peltasts 1100 1000
Cavalry 1000 1500

[fairline]

Originally posted by beingofone
I am using board wargame combat factors to put together the armies. So my calculator is getting a good workout.

Nice to see another hex-head. What was the board game? - IIRC there was an Avalon Hill (?) Greek wargame, whose name escapes me.

Hardly any terrain modifiers because almost all battles of this time period were on a flat or rolling field.

Largely true - but don't forget what finally did for the Macedonian phalanx was it's inability to cope with uneven ground compared to the Roman legions; the phalanx was unbeatable on a well-chosen flat battlefield so long as it's flanks were secured.

Fairline, cool new units and thanks for the correction on the Macedonian phalanx, I had the name of the Diodachi period DO`H.

I have just started redoing my early Romans, Carthaginians and Samnites - so send me your current units file and I'll update as required.

[Exile]

Yep.

Gareth, the Avalon Hill wargame you're referring to was called "Alexander." It was a set-piece battle of Arbela/Gaugamela. It was unique in that it had different sizes and shapes for different types of units. Leaders were small, round counters, while the phalanx was an extra-large, square counter.

[beingofone]

Hello fellow grognards and uber - geeks LOL.
Exile and Fairline, I might have guessed - hex heads just like me.
Yup Exile is right, it is now called Great Battles and made by GMT games GMT

I miss the days of pushing cardboard counters on a map. I am still learning with PC.
I was lucky and we had a group of 15 that played everything from WW2 and modern back to ancients.
We once played War in Europe and War in the Pacific at the same time, linking the two games together. It was a two year game .

It would be fun to sit down at a big table with everyone here and play a monster again. Alas , I am getting old.

[techumseh]

Yup, those were the days. I still have close to 100 old boxed and magazine games, including the original "Afrika Korps".

[Exile]

LOL!

Not surprised, Brian. I bet most of the people in SL are just the same--old hexgrid-wargamers.

[Broken_Erika]

Re: LOL!

Originally posted by Exile
Not surprised, Brian. I bet most of the people in SL are just the same--old hexgrid-wargamers.

i too like hexgrid wargames, same as my brothers,
ever play any of the "axis and allies" board games?

[Boco]

[utter hijack]
What is a hex wargame? Never heard of 'em!

Contest: what's your oldest S&T ish still in your possession.

Can't decide whether my next project will be based on Alesia or Khalkin-Gol.
[/utter hijack]
Most of the set piece battles were indeed fought on clear terrain, but there were a lot of examples of mobile light troops holding off heavier troops in broken terrain. If it fits your theme, it'd be fun to have to choose between mobile (even alpine) but weak light troops and heavy slowpokes.

[fairline]

Originally posted by Boco
Most of the set piece battles were indeed fought on clear terrain, but there were a lot of examples of mobile light troops holding off heavier troops in broken terrain. If it fits your theme, it'd be fun to have to choose between mobile (even alpine) but weak light troops and heavy slowpokes.

Exactly - the general movement to ditching armour by Greek armies in the late 5th/early 4th Centuries was almost certainly a result of the success of peltasts of the Thracian model. The Lakedaimonians took note of the success of peltasts against their supply columns and probably as a direct result implemented radical changes to their army: they adopted the mora or combined-arms division and got rid of hoplite body armour. The Athenian general Iphicrates was a key figure in the general trend in the later Classical period for hoplites to become lighter-armed and peltasts to become heavier.

The theory is this trend was reversed somewhat by the heavier-armoured Theban phalanx of the 4th-Century which was copied and developed by Philip of Macedon.

You should definitely attempt to reflect the usefulness of peltasts, Beingofone; alpine movement and rough-terrain defensive modifiers are a must in my view. Some jiggery-pokey with movement values should help with the desired effect - move-1 for hoplites, high movement modifiers for roads, poor movement for non-alpine troops on rough terrain should ensure the hoplites and phalangites are kept on the planes and roads and make peltasts and psiloi worth building.

[techumseh]

Originally posted by Boco
[utter hijack]
What is a hex wargame? Never heard of 'em!

Contest: what's your oldest S&T ish still in your possession.

Believe it or not, it's #2. It has some rules for miniature tanks, of which I still have 40 or so plastic Soviet and German tanks of various types in OO scale. We used to play with a tape measure on the living room floor, using encyclopedias as terrain.

[Broken_Erika]

Originally posted by fairline

You should definitely attempt to reflect the usefulness of peltasts, Beingofone; alpine movement and rough-terrain defensive modifiers are a must in my view. Some jiggery-pokey with movement values should help with the desired effect - move-1 for hoplites, high movement modifiers for roads, poor movement for non-alpine troops on rough terrain should ensure the hoplites and phalangites are kept on the planes and roads and make peltasts and psiloi worth building.

That should allow for some nice strategic manuevers,

[beingofone]

Contest: what's your oldest S&T ish still in your possession.

I think mine is Stonewall Jackson`s battle at Kernstown so techumseh has me beat.

Most of the set piece battles were indeed fought on clear terrain, but there were a lot of examples of mobile light troops holding off heavier troops in broken terrain. If it fits your theme, it'd be fun to have to choose between mobile (even alpine) but weak light troops and heavy slowpokes.

I am not debating with you guys, help me out, I am looking for solutions to try and make the scenario enjoyable and yet realistic. I appreciate the feedback.

I thought about this question.
I know you all know this, wargames can be simulated at three levels tactical, operational, and strategic. Sometimes you can mix and match say tactical and operational but given the design limits of Civ, you could not mix tactical with strategic.
If we were talking about a tactical battle, I would agree with all three of you. In a tactical situation skirmishers and light armed troops would be paramount. Possibly even at an operational level. But at a strategic level the peltast and light infantry formations stayed with the main body. The one exception would be cav formations. They fought on the same field and participated in the same battles as the hoplites. In other words they were non- existent at the strategic level.
The one exception for the Greeks that I know of is when the Athenians destroyed a Spartan unit of hoplites with peltasts of about battalion strength (600). The Thracians and Dacians had units composed almost entirely of peltast type units, I think this is where Iphicrates learned it.
I am designing a scenario at strategic level, I tried mixing operational, tactical, and strategic units in my last scenario King David. You remember Fairline, I had slingers and skirmishers in it. I was never really happy with the results, it just did not simulate warfare of the period.
I wish the game engine allowed for detachments and reattachment, then it would be problem solved.
My solution at this point ( unless someone comes up with a better idea), is to show skirmish tactics by improving the "army units" by increased stats.
I am open to new ideas.

I never could stand the ridiculous moving 1 hex a year game system of Civ, it was the first thing I altered in the rules text many moons ago. It was and still is in my opinion the most unrealistic thing about the Civ games and scenarios. In fact in Chariots of War and Legion it drives me batty to.
As far as roads go, they (as far as my studies go) were virtually non- existent in Greece. The reason was the Polis city States independance, as the same roads that make it easy to travel are good access roads for your enemies. Same goes for Italy.

My attempted solution to this overall dilemma is to make it really, really tough to build units and maintain them. At the same time making the units an "army" worth building. Each City can field its own army and this is a very good simulation to do that.

I know I don`t sound like it but I really am open to everyones imput, just explaining what my thoughts on this are.