Welcome Back!

[techumseh]

I appreciate the detailed answer from Locutus. It's important for newer members of the community to realize that SL was formed independently of Apolyton and has CHOSEN to be based here. There have been discussions in the (distant) past about moving elsewhere, but Apolyton has, as Locutus says, always offered the best deal. I find this event a bit disturbing, but I'm happy to wait until the restoration work is done.

As far as the discussions about reorganizing the site, I think there's more than just the graphics threads to talk about. First, there's already too much emphasis on units. What about terrain, cities, icons and people? Sci-fi and fantasy?

Can we not have separate web pages that the better graphics can be transferred to? That would save us scrolling through pages and pages of forums to find something. Forum based storage is an organizational nighmare.

Also how do we want to handle storage and access to completed scenarios? And reviews? What else?

[Mercator]

Originally posted by techumseh
In the "olden days" most files were stored on various individual's own web sites. Nowadays, we have tended to use the forums themselves for storage, even for scenario files.

This is very much what I've been thinking. Not so much as a result of this thing, but also with the earlier discussion we were having. There used to be a lot of Civ2 websites. Just about every scenario designer (or other Civ2 enthusiast) seemed to have one. But now, there are hardly any left. Everyone just sticks to these forums. Most of the Civ2 websites that are still around are maintained by "veterans". Only Catfish seems to be the exception.

I don't really think the forum is the right place to use as permanent storage like the graphics showcase and scenario release threads are. The forum is great to quickly and easily post new stuff and get some comments and feedback, though.

I think it would be a better idea to use the SLeague website rather than make sticky threads for everything in the forum. The only problem there is that St Leo isn't always the most reliable webmaster. Then again, he is doing it on his own.

But whichever way we're gonna organize this stuff, we'll be needing some dedicated editors.

Let's think the unthinkable. What would we do if Apolyton went under? Or their servers were destroyed in a fire or earthquake? (...)

I don't think we have to get quite that desperate yet. But it would be very handy to have our own backup in the form of websites.

Originally posted by St Leo
In fact, at this point it might be a good idea to merge Creation with PBEM. I'll raise the idea once the restoration is finished.

I think the Test of Time forum is more in need of a merger. I wouldn't merge it all into Creation though. Some threads would be more appropriate in the General or Strategy forums.

Originally posted by biru biru
Maybe threads for cites, icons, sounds? Might make surfing for these items easier for scenario builders.

But the problem there is that we'd get way too many topped threads like that. The forum would become our files database, and I don't think that's a good idea (as I said above).

Couldn't we make a submission thread or something? A thread where everyone can post his graphics etc. The attachment would then be uploaded to the Scenario League website, added to its downloads and the post subsequently removed from the submission thread.

[fairline]

Originally posted by Locutus
..only some of the data of the past 3 weeks has been lost. That's all, everything else will be restored no problem, it will just take a while to sort things out (exactly because this is the first time ever that this has happened).

Reassuring news if that is the case; I think we can live with the loss of 3 weeks-worth of posts. I was expecting a worse hit than that.

[Patine]

Well, I admit I never saw this coming, as naive as that sounds. I just kind of thought all was well in Apolyton-land, and am somewhat shocked. But, my close friend reminds me that the Internet is a pretty volatile place. I'm just hoping as much as possible can be restored.

[GoPostal]

I would like to suggest a thread where each creator has a post which they update often, containing download links to all of their scenarios.

[fairline]

I'll throw in my 2-p's worth regarding the graphics threads as it appears to be a major consideration with regard to proposed changes to the SLeague.

First off, the graphics threads were too large / unwieldy / full of spam to be of any practical use for scenario designers. In part this was a result of the general obsession with unit icons that had already been noted by Mercator, Andrew Livings and Techumseh; if those of us who posted icons put as much effort into scenario creation we'd have dozens of scenarios to play. I guess we should consider what the thread's primary purpose is here: to give scenario designers a useful and easily referenced resource, rather than an end to themselves.

My suggestion is to scrap the old threads, if they haven't already been lost. Introduce Curt's 'sub-thread by period/genre' under a master thread, if that's possible. I'd impose the following restrictions on posting graphics: accumulate a collection of the damn things, perhaps a minimum of 10 or 20, rather than posting individual icons 20 times. Don't spam the effing thread. Don't post minor changes to other icons. Think whether anyone will actually use the stuff you're posting. Cut out the 20 congratulatory text posts that seem to accompany each post with a graphics attachment. And perhaps above all, view the graphics threads for what they are (or should be): a resourse for scenario creation rather than an end in themselves.

If there is one master graphics thread alongside topped threads concerning advice for general scenario design, new discoveries, scenario review, tech-tree help, events help (c.f. Yoshi's thread at CivFan) etc, perhaps this will restore parity between the graphics and the mechanics of scenario design which has rightly been identified as a flaw in the SLeague by Tech, APL, Merc et al.

[St Leo]

Originally posted by techumseh
I appreciate the detailed answer from Locutus. It's important for newer members of the community to realize that SL was formed independently of Apolyton and has CHOSEN to be based here. There have been discussions in the (distant) past about moving elsewhere, but Apolyton has, as Locutus says, always offered the best deal. I find this event a bit disturbing, but I'm happy to wait until the restoration work is done.

Also, it should be noted that historically Civ2 Creation and Scenario League were separate forums that merged for strategic reasons. There was some brouhaha over sovereignity and Hosted Site status.

As far as the discussions about reorganizing the site, I think there's more than just the graphics threads to talk about. First, there's already too much emphasis on units. What about terrain, cities, icons and people? Sci-fi and fantasy?

I am against splitting sci-fi and fantasy.

Ancient/Pre-Steam Unit Graphics
Industrial Unit Graphics
WW2 Unit Graphics
Modern Unit Graphics
SciFi/Fantasy Unit Graphics
City Graphics Showcase
Other Graphics Showcase

Can we not have separate web pages that the better graphics can be transferred to?

Sure. That's why I've tried to badger people into making compilations of their graphics. Graphic-by-graphic webpages are a pain.

That would save us scrolling through pages and pages of forums to find something. Forum based storage is an organizational nighmare.

True, but it does provide for easy commenting and a centralized community. There's a reason why Freeciv graphics stuff is being done here rather than at, say, the Freeciv.org Wiki.

Also how do we want to handle storage and access to completed scenarios? And reviews? What else?

We still have a website, you know.

I am fine with using stickied threads for completed scenarios and reviews. Remember that mods can edit other people's posts, which is of some utility in directory threads.

[Broken_Erika]

a while ago after fairline had a computer crash, there was talk about an ftp bombshelter, perhaps that could be implimented by someone,

[curtsibling]

Harry Tuttle did find something...

[curtsibling]

Originally posted by fairline
I'll throw in my 2-p's worth regarding the graphics threads as it appears to be a major consideration with regard to proposed changes to the SLeague.

First off, the graphics threads were too large / unwieldy / full of spam to be of any practical use for scenario designers. In part this was a result of the general obsession with unit icons that had already been noted by Mercator, Andrew Livings and Techumseh; if those of us who posted icons put as much effort into scenario creation we'd have dozens of scenarios to play. I guess we should consider what the thread's primary purpose is here: to give scenario designers a useful and easily referenced resource, rather than an end to themselves.

My suggestion is to scrap the old threads, if they haven't already been lost. Introduce Curt's 'sub-thread by period/genre' under a master thread, if that's possible. I'd impose the following restrictions on posting graphics: accumulate a collection of the damn things, perhaps a minimum of 10 or 20, rather than posting individual icons 20 times. Don't spam the effing thread. Don't post minor changes to other icons. Think whether anyone will actually use the stuff you're posting. Cut out the 20 congratulatory text posts that seem to accompany each post with a graphics attachment. And perhaps above all, view the graphics threads for what they are (or should be): a resourse for scenario creation rather than an end in themselves.

If there is one master graphics thread alongside topped threads concerning advice for general scenario design, new discoveries, scenario review, tech-tree help, events help (c.f. Yoshi's thread at CivFan) etc, perhaps this will restore parity between the graphics and the mechanics of scenario design which has rightly been identified as a flaw in the SLeague by Tech, APL, Merc et al.

I'll buy that for a dollar!

I think a master thread is the way to go, somewhat similar to
the tips thread that was up just before the fall of castle CIV!

[St Leo]

Originally posted by fairline
one master graphics thread

We'll give that a try. Restoring balance could be healthy, but I don't want to smother graphics activity either.

[techumseh]

Let's take this opportunity to brainstorm about how we'd like SL to look. What do we want it to do for us, whether we're a designer, a player, a history buff, or a graphic artist?

In addition to being the place to discuss and communicate, the forums have become a disorganized (and apparently vulnerable) place to store graphics and scenarios. Scattered information relating to reviews and tips are posted on the forums as well. The problem is, they are an inefficient and inaccessable resource for scenario designers, experienced or not.

Don't get me wrong. The SL forum is the heart of our community, and as Harry T recently pointed out, we are undergoing a renaissance at SL. But the forum is doing too many things it isn't designed for.

I suggest a new web site for SL, with the idea that it's designed as the gateway to the forum, rather than the other way around. Move new scenarios and graphics, as well as tips, reviews and contests onto their own pages. Provide links to the SL forum and other web resources.

Other ideas?

[Mercator]

I agree completely...

There are just a few problems. Ideally I'd like to see the site redesigned from the ground up, clearly organized and consistent, with no left-overs from past designs. But that's a hell of a lot of work. Even if we're going with the current site there will be much to do.

In fact, that's pretty much the problem I'm running into with my own website as well. Things are all over the place. And that's just about organizing existing data. There's also so much new stuff I have to add.

At the moment, St Leo is the only one working on the SL website, AFAIK. He can't possibly do this on his own.

That's also why we've been mostly sticking to the forums. It's much easier to maintain. But it can also quickly become a muddled mess.

[curtsibling]

We are all good at making tech trees in CIV2 - Let's put that
design rationale to work and make some ingenius forum structures!

[Panda]

Well here's my idea, again linked to the SL site: personal web pages to form the resource part of the League, but instead of storing the files on the SL server we could simply link to the Apolyton upload space. This would allow ppl to easily edit their own work while retaining the url (and so you wouldn't need to bother St Leo for every update of your graphics collection). Updates can be reported on a dedictated forum thread.

I suggest a new web site for SL, with the idea that it's designed as the gateway to the forum, rather than the other way around. Move new scenarios and graphics, as well as tips, reviews and contests onto their own pages. Provide links to the SL forum and other web resources.

I think it would be just as valid to maintain a master thread for links to graphics posts, scenario workshops, and tips and guides discussion.

The problem, as has been rightly identified, is that we want to retain the dynamic access of the forum and have clear structure and useful information and file retrieval. A master thread for each topic (graphics/scenarios/reviews/tips) would allow people to post links to important threads, with perhaps a short description. Master threads would also provide a gateway for newcomers in identifying where to go for particular discussions and you'd prevent duplication and/or repetition of frequently asked questions (hopefully).

My only real concern is with the graphics showcases. Would it be acceptable to encourage the use of linking to new graphics from personal upload space rather than as attachments? This would be easier to maintain an "index" if it only required another link rather than another attachment. The showcase threads could still retain the old form of submission, feedback, improvement, requests, and occasional OT trolling.